Where for Art Thou, Little Engine that Could?
by gaz-tastic on Jan 13, 2012 2:15 PM PST
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The nation adored us when we came out of nowhere in 1999 to claim an Elite 8 birth in the NCAA Tournament. A tiny Jesuit college from Nowhere, USA shocked the world. A true David vs. Goliath story. It was so much fun to realize that on any given night we could pull the upset, and we did it over and over again. Because of our unprecedented success we are hardly considered a mid major anymore. We own the WCC Conf Title, it’s just a given. Dance? We’re on it year after year, after year.
Flash forward 13 years and things have changed, a lot. We take the things we accomplish for granted, and scream for more. Not satisfied with a record setting pace of consecutive conference titles, or 13 straight years dancing, we want a national title. Heck, we’d even settle for a return to the Elite 8, an accomplishment that has eluded us all of these years since. We grow restless.
How come we cannot get back to the Elite 8 or perhaps even further than we did in the magical 1999 season? We have better players, with more talent. The core of the coaching staff is still in place. We have better facilities. Is it the coach’s fault? Are the players we recruit selfish and not "buying in"? Are we failing in recruiting and development? Is this simply the best we can ever hope to do?
I am mixed about all of this. On one hand happy for all we have achieved, on the other frustrated that we seem to have faltered, rather, stagnated…. and then there is the fear that things might actually be falling apart. Especially, since cupcake eating St. Mary’s just destroyed us.
There is a lot of season yet to unfold and it is not impossible to continue our record setting string of successes. We could still win two of three vs. St. Mary’s, win the WCC conference Title and Tournament. But, no matter what we might possibly accomplish, this team will be looked at as a failure by many, if it does not reach the Elite 8 or beyond.
This post does not reflect the views of the blog authors or SB Nation.
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Alot of games to be played...
Good Post but your last paragraph you stated that it would be looked at as a failure if this team dosent reach the elite 8 or beyond, I respectively disagree with you there, why would it be a failure? I am more worried at this point of taking one step at a time and winning our conference first, that in itself will be no easy task. Yes we are growing restless as fans, wondering when we will finally turn that corner and go deep into March, honestly I dont see a deep run this year, I see sweet 16 potential…
We have BYU SM one more, and if we have a slight let down against a team like LMU and San Fran we could very easily lose a game or 2 there…I am dissapointed on the ass whooping that was placed on us last night, but its time to step it up now, maybe this is a good loss for this team, maybe it will fuel the fire just that much more, we will not walk thorugh the WCC by just showing up, everybody want a peice of us, no matter if they have 2 wins or 20…
St Marys brings there game to another level when they play us, yeah they got beat by Denver, and San Diego only lost by a slim margin, but we all know that dosent mean shit when they play us…SM wanted it much more than we did yesterday, that was apparent.
We no longer will suprise anyone, we are good, we dont play like we have nothing to lose, like the teams in 1999, 2000 etc…We dug ourselves out of a hole last year and I believe we will bounce back and be fine…
If Harris comes back next year, I think we have great potential to go very deep into March, especially if KO can produce and finally become the player that was projected…
Sacre needs to find his confidence and fire, we need him to be that impact player moving forward otherwise Dower should start, sad but reality, 0-7 yesterday, turnovers, and my gosh still the same get the ball bring to his waist and the go up slowly, so frustrating! He will never change….
Im hoping for a fire to be lit, its time now to hold home court and go to BYU and get a tough road win, there is plenty of opportunity left for us to win conference and make a deep run in March, lets see how we respond.
JSH
How come nobody mentions the injury to Sacre's knee?
He is pretty banged up, it is more than just his thumb. Some of it must be confidence and frustration too. He is obviously slumping. If injuries are causing said slump, the coaches need to rest him or the season could be lost. This is where good coaching should come into play. He can play much better than this, he has shown the ability already. He can’t even hit his free throws right now! I say it’s on the coaches to get this handled.
Scott- I personally do not feel like the season would be a failure if we do not make the Elite 8. I mean to say that there are a growing number of fans that will though. I am getting restless for sure, but realize that we have a pretty good thing going too.
Final 4 or Bust!!~
1998-99 Was the Anomaly. What was special then? (I started rooting in 2002-03. Remember Blake's bank vs. Az- of course you do.)
I agree with scotthen. Anything short of Elite 8 is not a failure. The ultimate goal should always be to reach our fullest potential. Maybe it’s elite-8, maybe it’s not, not sure. Talking of 1998-99, I found a great website called fanbase.com, where I scanned our results from those days until the present. We’ve lived these teams so vividly, that strangely enough, I actually picked up on some things looking over the results year to year. One of those, “can’t see the forest for the trees” things. With all of these different players and personalities, we’ve been unbelievably consistent. We invariably have a few rough times in the pre-league part of the schedule, a hiccup or two within the league before managing to win the conference title, a trip to the dance, and a disappointing loss in round 1, 2, or 3. (pretty obvious comments, but it did help to see it.) What is different now, is our expectations. Many of us here are starving for more in the tourney.
2 things, food for thought. 1) What have done to go from a consistent top-20 program to a final 4 threat? new arena, bone-crushing pre-league schedule, different recruiting emphases such as internationals. I could be a devils advocate and argue against all these factors. Have we done enough? the right things? 2) Can we explore what was different about the 1998-99 squad? I guess this team had something truly special that we’ve yet to duplicate.
by MdZagFan on Jan 13, 2012 5:15 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Good questions
In regards to:
Can we explore what was different about the 1998-99 squad? I guess this team had something truly special that we’ve yet to duplicate.
Maybe this is a cop out, but that 98-99 squad had a lot less pressure to win. The evidence is right here in front of us. Many of us are frustrated that we can’t make that jump into that elite-8/final foul caliber team. Think of what Few, the coaching staff, and the players are feeling. When Few (or whoever) is recruiting a top prospect, do you think he says “come play for GU, I want you to take us the round of 32!” or “Come play for GU, I want you to take us the final four?” The players know the history of the program, maybe they are feeling the pressure.
It’s easier to play loose and play your game when you know your expectations are low.
Disclaimer: I’m not sure if I even fully believe what I wrote but I was exploring a possibility. So please don’t jump down my throat if you find this completely false. :)
I think that what you've brought up about 1998/1999 vs Post 1999 until now is and always has been legit!
There is one glaring factor that has been absent from that team every year since1999 and there has been one constant factor that has been associated with GU from1999 until now!.
You sir, have struck the vocal cord of wisdom on this site. I’ve been waiting for 3 years for this to be brought up by ANYONE but it just never seemed to get legs. Great job finding the reason for not being able to make the final step.
I’m serious, MdZagFan great post………………………Now the sky will fall with the “your nuts”. Again, Bingo… and you can now determine what that factor is?
The anomoly? What was it?
Possibly, it was Dan Monson saying the F with the administrators and red-shirting everyone. He is a damn good coach and he did something unheard of. I scribbled up a fanpost on it one time. I was kinda goofing around, but there is a part of me that would LOVE to have seen coach Few do it again. Red shirt everyone this year. See what we could accomplish with this fantastic class in 5 years! See if it could help us catch magic in a bottle one more time.
Here it is: http://www.slipperstillfits.com/2011/3/22/2066317/2011-12-red-shirt-everyone-dammit
Final 4 or Bust!!~
5th year seniors
While I’m not sure I buy into this being THE thing, it is an interesting point. Supporting evidence is what ND State did in their first year of tournament eligibility with their slew of fifth year seniors.
So, you see, it has been duplicated again...and it does work!
Not the conventional way of “getting there” but……anyone have a better Idea? lol
Final 4 or Bust!!~
Oh yeah, I forgot
Kudos to the Gaz-man for finally drawing out the Holy Grail!
Thanks Gaz and you know I mean it!
The "Holy Grail"?
I guess anyone can get lucky….here I am, simply stumbling around like Mr MGoo, blindly finding this “Holy Grail.”
We have not quite grasped what it is. We say it’s expectatons, pressure, what else? What is missing, or different from that Elite 8 team of 1999?
Dan Monson helped start it all with a little Dan Fitz. sprinkled in prior, he gave Monson the proverbial green card. He is long gone, now currently helping Long Beach State to knock off top 20 teams. Coaches Rice & Grier are gone. The gutsy red-shirt phenomena took place the prior year to that lonely Elite 8 anomoly. It is no more.
Perhaps, coach Few is simply running on raggedy coat tails, once primed and pristine? Has he not learned enough to do anything but duplicate most of what he was handed….and thus, the magic dust has begun to run its course?
Thank you Mike, for the complement. While we’re on the subject, it’s great having you back. Lots of members have already mentioned it. What you bring to this site is irreplaceable. And you know I mean it.
Final 4 or Bust!!~
Coach
I hope this thought-provoking thread does not disintegrate into a Mark Few bashing. If the magic of 1998-99 was indeed the coach, then can we elaborate on how the coaches differ? Another interesting “discovery” I made while studying the GU records over the years was the # of losses by the Calvary/Frahm/Hall/Santangelo teams early in the seasons. We would be in full out panic if that was now. Those with the knowledge: what were they able to do to pull it together at the end of the year each time. (thought- do we admire what the San Diego Chargers do every year? Not really.) One more “revelation”: Calvary was a sophomore on the elite-8 team. Only one senior lost from that team- Leasure. Did the team improve the next two years? Give me some history lessons.
I think Mike is educating us or leading us in some obvious direction here. I’m too stupid to see it. I personally think it is not a simple, obvious answer. I think if it was so easy to be great in athletics, I wouldn’t be interested in it. I like hitting 1000’s of range balls. I like putting in my living room. I like watching the lesson tee on Golf Channel.
Mike is not "leading" anywhere.
While you’ve struck the Bonanza Gold don’t put 2+2=5 together.
Coach Few has: Won every year he’s been at GU, recruited great talent, won tons of games, got a new complex built, increased the enrollment and thus the “Money” for the University, maintained a “clean” program and has the great respect of his players. Look around the country and it’s not matched very often! Anyone who can’t understand or respect what Coach Few has been able to accomplish at GU is just plain stupid!
Now that the accolades are in the mix, what is missing in the formula? There probably won’t be any completely wrong answer but so many will never be willing to put together the right answers. Subjective? Of course! Thats part of the point.
The brainiacs will flood the narrative with all the usuals: The water is too high, the bridge is too low, it was an off day, the ref’s made bad calls, the students were gone, the “so and so team” is horrible, it was a bad draw, we play too tough of a schedule, we can’t get the talent in Spokane, the guards are too young, the older players are too old and on and on it will go. Most likely most of those prognosticators will never get beyond those nuances and actually openly debate the question you asked, WHY?
I’m sure many here have followed enough hoops over their lifetimes and been around the different parts of the Country to be able to watch and even be part of some of those great institutions that just seem to get over the hump. How much fun would that be? Look closely folks, there is a WHY.
As I drift off into sunset here, thanks to Gaz for the “Post” of Century" and to you MdZagFan for the thought provoking question for the fans! I won’t end up in this debate for the tit for tat that will follow eventually but I will leave the site with the most famous example to the WHY I could think of. There are a lot more but none so glaring.
UCLA 1974/1975 vs UCLA 1975/1976 and beyond.
It’s been fun! On to more challanges!!!!!!
Save Everybody some time
UCLA 1974-75 was Wooden’s last year and title at UCLA. The following year they lost to arguably the best college basketball team ever assembled- Indiana and a perfect record. Would have been fun to see either Walton’s team or Alcindor’s team play this IU team.
So, the “answer” to the puzzle is : Dan Monson. My next question is, what about him? Why hasn’t Monson been able to replicate his success at GU? It’s been 10+ years.
I’m in the camp with NCWZagfan. IMO it’s more of a “catch lightening in a bottle” kind of thing. There are so many good teams and good players in the world now. The “teams of the olden days” were more like monopolies. Heck- UCLA had a backup center that had a long NBA career- Swen Nater. He rarely touched the floor. Walton played big minutes. Back in the day, 40 minutes wasn’t outrageous. Like pitch counts in baseball nowadays.
I like Butler’s “formula” better than ours in terms of reaching the promised land but their cupboard may be much emptier than ours ever is this year.
Darnit Mike,,, You better not leave!!!
Right or wrong, agree or disagree, you always have a strong, educated opinion.!!!
Quit being so cryptic,,, who are you, Yoda!!????
I always enjoyed your analogy of us being fellas discussing, and arguing, our favorite team in a pizza shop (preferably one that serves beer!).,,, Stick around, the site is better with you, PLEASE…
Erm....maybe I should read ALL the comments before I start responding to comments from above, lol
Matt, I don’t think Mike is going anywhere. As long as members can continue to dissect and discuss in a responsible manner w/out getting nasty and personal, why would he?
I do not know what the “holy grail” is for absolutely certain. Is it Monson? Few’s lack of ability to be Monson “esque”? If the answer is indeed Monson, why has he not duplicated it at Long Beach {as MD said?}
There are many things to it….But, the only thing I can see that is totally different is the red shirting of all those players, but is that the answer? Maybe partially, but 100%? It must be a combination of things. Certainly?
Final 4 or Bust!!~
Wooden..."Where for Art Thou"?
UCLA teams coached by John Wooden won 10 national titles in 12 seasons from 1964 to 1975. Amazing stuff. I just typed it and cannot believe it….but it’s true.
Do we have a coach that can do that? UmmmmmK, not hardly.
Final 4 or Bust!!~
who does?
best there is out there right now is Coach K….maybe Jim Boehiem….they have not even come close…..and they won’t of course….
anyway…
I believe what is different is HOW the players played the game. For me…the way to help answer your question is to watch a couple games from that elite 8 year….and then watch the most recent game for GU…you will see some good (the freshman guards) as they have not been ruined yet…but aside from that, you will see a much slower, lazy, lacking in fundamentals, lacking in heart…“team”…shuffling around out there….with…terrible spacing, terrible fundamental, terrible execution, no confidence and nothing to indicate they are inspired in any way to play hard for their coach.
the elite 8 team…overachieved…..and ever since….the talent pool has risen but results are more and more underwhelming….why? I believe Coach Wooden said something that strikes at the heart of the issue….of why and what needs done to resolve….
Don’t measure yourself by what you have accomplished, but by what you should have accomplished with your ability.
if this is genuinely done….change will occur….if not….the trend will continue.
If you don't like my fire then don't come around...
Brilliant comments and insight!
Let’s try my new found skill out here:
nothing to indicate they are inspired in any way to play hard for their coach.
THIS is what I am most curious about.
What does an elite coach like the great John Wooden have that enables his players to overachieve to the extent that his teams did. Was it his morality, his christianity, his voice tonality, the way he dressed, his good looks? He was a disciplined coach and he definately had the players respect, but there is that missing ingredient we can’t seem to grasp. If we could, everyone would be able to do what Wooden did, right?
A great quote from Wooden:
Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are
I just had to put that on here.
Final 4 or Bust!!~
I think....
Wooden preferred talent over experience because ppl with “experience” invariable were working from the limited perspective their experiences provided them. I call this “peep hole perspective” He saw talent as “god given” and so it was pure and devoid of preconceived notions or simply put, the bad habits of one’s personal experience.
In other words, he could work with talent and shape that young man into a person of character through the use of his “god given” talents. I say this to draw a sharp contrast to the current coach.
First it is no secret that Coach Few is not a great orator. This speaks to the fact he lacks the ability to be a motivator or one who can inspire his players. Obviously John Wooden had this gift as do other coaches….
Secondly it is also obvious that he tends to talk up the weaker teams so as to veil his teams inconsistent play and performance. As I see it, this is more about his unwillingness to address his own inabilities and take ownership of his and his staffs shortcomings. IMO a character issue.
Third, as a result of direct observation, the players dislike him on a personal level, and that leads to lack of respect on the court. I am sure others will say, “Oh well a player does not have to like his coach”…..maybe not, but when it comes time for that player to perform and the relationship or respect is not there, more often than not, that player will allow their attitude and emotion to dictate their effort.
Lastly, basketball was a tool to Wooden. He was in the business of making men of character….this is because he understood that when you coach a young man you are directing him not only in great execution of the fundamentals of the game you are teaching him that doing so with integrity and effort, putting to use your “god given talent” will be and should be a life long pursuit. I propose that Wooden won so many championships because his players had the character to execute the fundamentals and out of that, their god given talents were maximized.
Winning takes talent, to repeat takes character. - the Wizard of Westwood
This is my favorite part of your position:
“I propose that Wooden won so many championships because his players had the character to execute the fundamentals and out of that, their god given talents were maximized”
The part where the players may not like or respect coach Few on a personal level hopefully, is only partially true, if at all. Is it because he does not seem warm, fuzzy, and approachable? And, because he does not orate exceedingly well, this affects his overall persona, which contributes to a lack of respect of his players?
If true, it hardly seems fair. We could say that Few is a very godly man. Born and raised into a home with a minister for a father. A decent, hard working family man, a great father, attends church, does not appear to have any moral deficiencies. He has raised nearly 4 million towards the local Coaches vs. Cancer organization and donates time, raises large sums of money for Camp Goodtimes. I would have a difficult time not having the highest possible respect for this man, as my coach.
His example as a man off the court, and his longevity, success, and reputation at Gonzaga could easily suade me to overachieve, if you will, like Mr. Wooden’s disciples did for him.
Final 4 or Bust!!~
I remember Calvary speaking poorly of Few..
Met him once, seemed affable and sharp, and to say most of his players don’t like him,, I would guess that not to be true,,am sure some don’t, but when he gets involved heavily in a recruitment, we seem to do well (GBJ).
Perhaps he has a narrow window of personalities he engages well?
clarification...
His oratory skills limit his ability to motivate and inspire…IMO. The issue with SOME of the players, (did not intent to say all of his players dislike him..my bad) is more a hard-headed, inflexible, my way or the hwy…mentality that is very rigid and unsympathetic. Things should be and ppl should behave as he thinks or they are wrong.
We could say that Few is a very godly man. Born and raised into a home with a minister for a father. A decent, hard working family man, a great father, attends church, does not appear to have any moral deficiencies. He has raised nearly 4 million towards the local Coaches vs. Cancer organization and donates time, raises large sums of money for Camp Goodtimes.
Having a minister for a father does not make you godly by default. Appearance is not a measure of morality nor is raising money for charity. From the outside, he seems like a good guy and you would be inspired to play for him. Fair enough but what you are referring to is reputation….and those things, while being good are not the measure of the relationship he has with his players. Two totally different ballparks in two totally different cities.
I do not purport to know his heart nor was I even addressing such. I was utilizing, who in my mind is the high water mark for college basketball coaches, John Wooden to illustrate what is possible for a coach to achieve or at least strive for.
Lastly…not trying to be a prick but what I said about some of the players not liking him…..is fact. I don’t just make sh*t up to have something to say.
This fact upsets me, because I know it limits the effort and development, not to mention their chance at building character while playing for GU. However….it is in this area that DD has made his most impact at GU.
Winning takes talent, to repeat takes character. - the Wizard of Westwood
Geez, if you compare Few to Wooden... well, Wooden is the best ever, nuff said.
I perused some Wooden quotes,,, years ago read about his “pyramid of success”, because it seemed like Walton alluded to it every game.
His business WAS making men of character, basketball second, though you had to be quite a player to receive this wisdom…I actually mean to read a book by him in the near future (The Seven Principles) couldn’t help leaning something,imo
I’ll just be happy if Few gets the rotation straight, LOL
It's about making the tourney every year
IMO that’s it. Stringing together “your best 5 games of the season” gets you in the final. If you look at the history of the tournement invariablly there’s a team or two that makes the final 4 that doesn’t have the talent as some others. They get hot when the tournement starts (U Conn ‘11). Yea, you catch a team or two on an off night, and you need the ball to bounce your way (luck), but mostly you’re playing your best basketball when the tourney starts. I want us to break through as bad as anyone. As long as we keep making the tournement, IMO, we will.
"Average is as Average does"
Short and sweet....
Aside from a couple “freaky” years, we tend to find ourselves the top half of the bracket playing what seems like the overall number 1 seed in our 2nd or 3rd game. 4, 5, 8, 9, 12 and 13 are all in the top and it seems like we always get seeded somewhere in that range. Take the projections for this year, a 5 in Portland.
That said, last year we were seeded low with an 11, St. Johns was a joke at 6 and BYU was being talked about as a possible number 1 seed but ended with a 3. Last year had all the makings of a second round loss but sometimes our Gonzaga glasses (much like beer goggles) get in the way to see clearly.
by We Want Wendy's on Jan 26, 2012 10:17 AM PST reply actions
Don't agree about the Johnnies
St. John’s had 6-10 (not going to look it up) huge wins last year, including road wins. The Big East is an absolute monster. They play BYU/St. Mary’s calibre games twice a week for 2 solid months.
Fact is we played our best game of the year by far to beat them. We even outmuscled them. IMO they were a legit 6.
Agree w/ MdZagFan for once, lol
Nobody wanted to draw the Johnies in the dance last year.
Just ask:
- GeorgeTown- #9
- Villanova- #15
- Pitt- #4
- UConn- #10
- Note Dame- #9
- Duke- #2
OR: DePaul, Cinci, Marquette, West Virginia, Providence
I am sure after getting their beat downs, they ALL will tell you St. Johns was at least a 6 seed.
Final 4 or Bust!!~
Lower than a 6?
I think the thing your list proves Gaz, is that anybody can beat anybody…
Just ask:
1. St. Mary’s
2. St. Bonevnture
3. Fordham
4, Notre Dame
5. Syracuse
6. Cincy
7. Georgetown
8. UCLA
9. Seton Hall
All teams who beat them (note the first few).
And I hardly consider “squeaky” wins against the likes of:
1. Ball State
2. Wagner
3. Columbia
As the mark of a quality club. The reality is, they schedule soft non conf games and played 500 ball in conference. I “personally” thought they were high at a 6.
by We Want Wendy's on Jan 27, 2012 10:59 AM PST up reply actions
You make a good point.
We all know how much love the big East gets every year anyways….
Final 4 or Bust!!~
Nice job backing up your point!
Even though I’m a Zags fanatic, I do have an eastern bias. (I’m sure that comment will go over well!) What UConn did last year to me was unbelievable. Surviving the league schedule, winning the Big East tournament in the Garden and then winning 6 more games in the Tourney. Awesome.
Personally I do put more value on the big wins a team has. I think you are right that St. Johns was inconsistent. Nationwide this year, how many monster wins can you think of? Remember a 6 seed is nothing more than a top 25 team. I think we have one- Xavier. Cincinnati may be this year’s St. Johns. A slew of big wins and road wins too. I think if it ended today, they should be a 5 or 6 seed too.
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