With Two Mid-Majors in the Final Four, Is it Time to Wonder About the Zags?
by Max Mandel on Mar 29, 2011 7:31 PM PDT
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For the second consecutive year, Butler is set to play in the Final Four after winning the Horizon League conference tournament. Despite finishing fourth in the CAA, VCU has won five consecutive games to earn a spot in the Final Four after years of being a difficult matchup in the NCAA Tournament. Unfortunately, for the second straight year, Gonzaga saw its season come to an end with a blowout loss in the second/third round of the NCAA Tournament. With Mid-Majors breaking through to compete for the ultimate prize in college basketball, it's interesting to ponder why Gonzaga not only has yet to make this break through, but also why it has been 12 years since the Zags even earned a spot in the Elite 8.
I want to make it clear that this blog isn't in anyway intended to be a condemnation of where the program stands or anything like that. Instead, I want this to be a genuine look at what Gonzaga needs to do to break through what appears to be a difficult wall. A lot of what VCU and Butler have done surrounds favorable matchups in the NCAA Tournament. For example, after knocking off Pitt in the third round, Butler received a matchup with Wisconsin in the Sweet 16. This is an ideal game for Butler as Wisconsin plays a similar style of basketball but doesn't execute it at as high of a level as Butler.
For VCU, an upset of Notre Dame in the third round meant a matchup in the Sweet 16 with Florida St. instead of the Fighting Irish. Instead of facing a senior-laden Notre Dame team that shoots the ball exceptionally well, the Rams faced a Florida St. team that lacked a true point guard and shot poorly from the perimeter. It's these kind of breaks (Kentucky winning in the final seconds against Princeton....UConn surviving two open shots in the final seconds against Arizona) that are needed to make a Final Four. However, when looking at Butler and VCU, there are certainly some traits that you'd like to see Gonzaga share down the road.
The immediate trait that jumps out at me, and it's something that Gonzaga will have next year, is the amount of upperclassmen that play key roles for both Butler and VCU. For the past two years, Gonzaga has seen one contributing senior graduate each season (Note: While Will Foster did graduate two years ago, he didn't receive many minutes). When you only have one senior playing frequent minutes, it's hard to get the leadership needed to understand what it takes to win and compete for 40 minutes each night. While we all want to debate the talent, or lack there of at certain positions, the most glaring thing for me the past two years has been the lack of leadership. Heading into 2011-12, guys like Rob Sacre, Demetri Goodson and Marquise Carter will provide a level of senior leadership that has been lacking in recent years. With Butler in particular, it's clear that the players know how to compete and execute in nearly any situation that can be presented in a game. I don't think this is a luxury Gonzaga teams have been afforded since the graduation of Pargo, Heytvelt and Downs.
While it's not necessarily attractive to watch, if there is one thing I wish that Gonzaga could take from Butler, it's a focus and passion for the defensive end. In the first 20 minutes of the game against BYU, the Zags gave up more open and uncontested looks then Butler has given up in the entire NCAA Tournament. Although you can debate the merits of a man-to-man defense vs. a zone defense, the reality is that performance on the defensive end ultimately comes down to how much effort a team is willing to put in. If five guys buy into excellence on the defensive end, which means contesting open looks and playing help defense for 35 seconds every possession, that team will compete in every game. Unfortunately, there seems to be a mindset that instead of focusing on getting stops, Gonzaga looks to win games on the offensive end instead of trying to stop an opponent. I truly believe that with the athletes and talent that the coaching staff will have at its disposal next season, that if defense can really become a priority and focus throughout the season, it will be the kind of team that can change the culture I just mentioned.
So with these considerations now discussed, the most important question is: What can Gonzaga do to develop its program and make a Final Four? Is it inherently possible to change a mindset of a program? If the answer to the previous question is yes, then who does the change start with? Does the type of recruit that Gonzaga typically pursues need to be changed? Or is the emphasis in practice not focused enough on defense? Personally, I tend to believe that for a mindset of a program to be changed, it often revolves around a particular recruiting class. This class is the type that comes in and changes the attitude surrounding a certain program. Could this 2011 recruiting class be the one that changes how Gonzaga plays and is viewed at the national level. Will a play-making guard like Gary Bell help elevate this program by being the guy who wants the ball with the game on the line just like Shelvin Mack has at Butler? Or can a guy like Ryan Spangler develop into a Matt Howard type player and use his effort over all 40 minutes of the game to grab a decisive rebound or draw the game-winning charge? Given the success of Butler and VCU this season, Gonzaga has seen the blueprint for making a Final Four. The question remains whether the foundation that this program was built on is strong enough to continue the push for the elusive spot in a Final Four.
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Great write up, Max!
Outstanding layout for success and by the way, you’ve covered it all! I’m looking forward to seeing some of the responses here.
By the way, Max
I posted our version of “Howard” wantabe on Spanglers post below. I sure hope your right about RS, wouldn’t that be great!
OH, AND THIS TOO MAX
Recruit kids that don’t CHOKE!! 2006 was their best chance , to advance (E-8, F-4 or play on MON) by far. And it was their best CHOKE JOB, by far.
It is going to be great having a "core" of seniors
Regardless of people’s feelings on the idea of leadership, I’m excited about having this defined group of veterans and the fact that the rotation shouldn’t have many surprises next year. While I expect some freshmen to contribute, the arrival of Marquise Carter and the improved play of Meech/Stockton in the backcourt provides at least some stability in that area.
Provided Elias has an injury free summer and the rest of the front court continues to work hard, I do like how this team sets up for the future.
I think you absolutely nailed it with the defensive comments. For some reason it is a secret that Gonzaga’s defense was their big issue this past season. Scoring, largely, was not an issue. I’ve said it before but until this staff plays a defense that forces opponents out of their comfort zone, Gonzaga will continue to flounder in the round of 32 (my answer the the 2nd/3rd round bs)
Great post, Max.
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Leadership and Defense
I can’t help but think the lack of seniors in the last two years has hurt us significantly. I personally think the combination of Carter/Goodson/Stockton in the back court will be formidable. Also the perimeter defense kills us too.
Also I think it should be pointed out that Butler and VCU have done incredible jobs this year. There are many supposedly more established programs that would want what Butler has going right now. If we really keep us in perspective and remember what Gonzaga is, we would not be too broken up over Butler and VCU making the final four. Gonzaga in the early, early days had what Butler has right now, which is team chemistry, senior leadership and a big fat chip on their shoulder. Do you think that if we hadn’t run into Connecticut (eventual national champion) that elite 8 squad team couldn’t have gone to a final four a’la Butler? Butler will not be able to keep these runs up much longer, they will come back down to earth and they will have to start trying to claw there way back just like us.
That being said GU needs to get their leadership and defense issues settled, and with the best recruiting class ever coming into school next year this program is looking up.
I don't get what the class of the player has to do with anything.
What does it matter whether it’s a senior, junior, sophomore or freshman? We need to win 4 games in a row against escalating competition, and that’s all. Look at Syracuse in 2003. Bunch of underclassmen and Craig Forth. You can’t tell me it was Craig Forth who was the leader of that team. Gary Bell could lead us to a final four next year or the year after easily.
If there is a change philosophically that needs to be made, it is definitely on the defensive end, specifically the 3 point defense. There has rarely been a guy on our team since Erroll Knight who was a stopper, and if I remember correctly, he was a transfer, so not even recruited by Few. We need a lockdown guy on the defensive end, just one. If we coulda put Erroll Knight on Jimmer we might be in the Final Four. It seems like every time we lose in the First or Second round it’s because one guy goes crazy and a few others make a couple shots here and there. Steph Curry, Andy Rautins, Jimmer Fredette. One defensive stopper can cut that down considerably. Meech is clearly not that stopper because he is too small. We need a guy who can physically harass the best player of the other team.
We also could use some luck. Like Wofford to beat BYU or something. Or BYU to miss some 30 foot jumpers. Or for us to shoot 50 some odd percent from 3 like VCU has seemed to do over the course of the tournament. Maybe we can run into someone having a bad game in the second round instead of having the game of their lives.
by BulldogsNotZags on Mar 29, 2011 8:15 PM PDT reply actions
Carmelo Anthony was one of the best freshman to EVER play the game...
like…ever. If Gary Bell can put up, hell, half of Melo’s freshman stat line, I will be floored. Not too mention G-Mac, Hakim Warick, Billy Edelin…that team had more talent in their top four than the Zags had on this year’s roster.
When you don’t have that kind of talent, it is nearly impossible to string together a run (see: Butler).
I see your point in that supreme talent ultimately can trump experience, but Gonzaga’s going to have to lean on their vets as they bring along the young guys. I’ll end the suspense now and say that GBJ will not lead this team to a final four next year. If Gonzaga is going to make a run, they are going to have to do it on the shoulders of Marquise, Rob, and the other vets.
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Amen Zach!
’Melo was the most transcendent freshmen(maybe even player) the college game has seen in the last decade. He put that Syracuse team on his shoulders and dominated the tournament unlike any freshmen(and maybe player) I have ever seen, and like Zach said, they had a ton of talent as well.
We have lost the last few years to teams that were flat better than us. Indiana in ’07 had a great post player in DJ White, and I believe Pendo was the 4 on that team. Davidson had a very good team(mostly because of Curry), and that North Carolina team in ’09 had more talent then we could ever get here, and their best players were upperclassmen. Then BYU.
We just haven’t had the talent to put together a run, and we haven’t had the luck.
I am curious to see what Butler does after this class of players leaves, do they have a great program or do they have great players(getting Matt Howard, Mack and Hayward in the same 3 year span)?
Good Post...
It is frustrating to watch teams like Butler and VCU make a run to the final 4…because as a true ZAGS fan I believe that we have the most talent, and potential….of course….right. I look at the guys we have on the floor and believe that overall we will be better than every team we play….
I think this is where myself and other zag fans may go wrong…..elite 8, final 4 talk year in and year out etc…but do we really know the talent that teams like VCU, and Butler are recruiting…other that Mack and Howard I know nothing about the other players on Butlers team, but maybe those players are better than our guys,or maybe they have the right chemistry to where they are fitting the system that was created for them,as far as recruiting …..
It seems to be a tough balance on how recruiting is done….do you recruit the best athlete, or the guy who fits the system of which you are trying to create?? Obviously there can be both here, but thats not always the case….look at Manny, phenomonal athlete but he finds himself riding the pine….
I think its all about balance and timing…I would rather recruit a guy with a high basketball IQ, than a high level athlete that is raw….
You cant hide the fact that we have got lit up 2 years in a row from beyond the perimeter, last year it was Syracuse, and this year was BYU. We need lockdown guys on defense, it wasn’t an accident that these teams are lighting us up, our Perimeter D was horrible!! …
We need to recruit some lockdown defenders and we need guys that can step up and be the X factor ( I believe we have that in GB, KD, KP coming in next year) This is definately a consistency we have lacked in past years…..
IDK…my comment here is very scattered….As a true fan I believe that we will find the right balance and remedy to make a true run in the NCAA…I am excited about this recruiting class next year……
JSH
Oddly enough...
Gazing at my annual Zag posters earlier today I noticed, and was reminded by looking at the pictures on them that in 2008/9 we lost a ton, Pargo, Heytvelt, Downs, Daye, yet the next two years basically only one guy. In 2009/10 Bouldin, and 2010/11, Gray.
That 2008/9 team was an awesome team. Laden with seniors. So I can agree with Max’s point about veteran leadership.
We have much better overall talent than we used to have and should be heads and shoulders above our WCC counterparts. It should also translate into getting past the sweet 16 but it has not.
I have written about going CRAzY and trying to red-shirt everyone as a desperate ploy to get back to the heights we attained during our Elite 8 run. It should not come down to desperate ploys or smoke & mirror tactics.
I am strongly beggining to wonder if it is our coaches. Few says he knows his limitations, they are a reason he has not left the program. Perhaps he knows he is in over his head?
Yes, veterans are important. Leadership, cough, is important. But teams like VCU are doing more, with less. Something is amiss and I think the coaching staff knows it.
Where have you been Max? I knew something was missing around here and it’s you! Great write up!!~ Rec’d.
Its gonna be gLoRiOUS!!~
4 more years
thats how much time i’m giving Mark Few to reach the Elite 8. If he can’t reach an elite 8 after 16 years of reaching the tournament, then I am officially calling for his head.
who in the hell is gonna want to come to a school that after12 plus years of making the tournament including three sweet sixteens, and 11 regular season champions FIRES there coach??? Who is going to come to the school that fires the coach that builds their program into something special?.
I never said
they would fire Mark Few. I just said that I am personally giving Mark Few 4 more years, 16 total, to reach an elite 8. If that doesn’t happen then I will be too pissed off to want Mark Few coaching the team.
I am sorry but there is no reason to be moaning about Coach Few
Look at some of the other “legendary” coaches:
-It Took Jim Calhoun 12 years at Connecticut to reach a final four, after spending 14 years at Northeastern where he never made it past the second round.
-It took Jim Boeheim 11 years at Syracuse
-Rick Pitino went 7 years
-John Calipari is in his 19th year coaching and this is his first official final four appearance (we’ll see if it gets vacated)
-Ben Howland got there in 12 years of coaching
These guys are at some of the premiere programs in the college basketball-Kentucky, UCLA, Connecticut, Syracuse they can recruit on name and conference. Gonzaga is a small school in Eastern Washington that plays in a piss poor conference. Mark Few is not our problem, if we could get the McDonald’s All Americans and had the same cache as these other schools then I would be right there with you waiting for him to get the boot. But Coach Few is in the middle of building this program from nothing into something special and it seems like GU fans are forgetting this.
by opooos on Mar 30, 2011 12:24 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Butler, VCU, and George Mason
never got any McDonald’s All Americans. there’s been numerous schools that have reached the elite 8 without McDonals all americans. We’ve had numerous draft picks, and actually Micah Downs was a McDonalds all American.
Calhoun reached the Elite 8 in his 4th year, but theres been a number of other teams from Mid-Major conferences that have reached the Elite 8, even Dan Monson managed that before.
I guess I’m just frustrated with blowout losses in the tournament, and never getting past the sweet 16. I’m just like anyone else I want a national championship, or at least to sniff one.
BUTLER and VCU
I think that many of you are missing some major points about their rise to the final 4. First they each got lucky at least in one of the games and had multiple close games. They each had at least 8 players (that contribute) that are in their junior and senior years. They had played together multiple years and came together at the right time. Also check out VCU stats. Their 3 pointers and defense are off the chart compared to the rest of the year (again some of this is luck and some skill).
We have made the tournament with one senior the last 2 years. I think if you checked out experience levels for this year, we were near the bottom. We have had multiple recruits that did not pan out for one reason or another (grades, chemistry, skill, unwilling to wait their time, wanting to be starters rather than role players …). If you listened to Steven this year he was happy to play on this years team, because the chemistry and attitude of his teammates (that has not been true in many of our previous teams). If they can build on that in the next few years and we get some “luck” then we can make it. Final 4s are as much luck as skill. As example if Jimmmer had shot the same percentage against us as the next game, then we might have made that run. Or if Steven had had the same game as he had against Curry, then again we might have been there.
We have had great runs (not as good as many of you want), but longevity means something. How many teams have been to the tournament more times in a row than GU? How many teams have won their league more times than GU? Yes it would be nice to make the final 4. So I will ask you would you rather go to the final four, and then not make the dance for the next 3 or 4 years? How many times do you think VCU will be making the dance in the next 5 years?
OK, I will get off my high horse, but many of you need to look at the positives that are happening. Then if we can get many of them to stay for 4 years, then we can mold the “team” to play against the McDonald’s AA. Few and his staff have done a super job in getting players that can compete at a high level. Now we just need them to stay, improve the way our coaches hope they will, mold into a team and we can enjoy the journey.
Get who to stay?
Do you really believe luck and skill in the tournament are equal? Are you saying that UCLA’s 10 years in a row were luck, or Dukes and NC’s championships were because of luck? If Jimmer hadn’t done this or if Steven had done that and were lucky instead? Your analysis suggests that we could be undefeated every year! Your Senior leadership thought is spot on but after that…………….?
I agree with you
All I was trying to point out is that skill plus some luck is needed. UCLA on their run had the best team and players in the nation (fun to watch). In todays world, being hot at the right time or having someone miss a shots makes the difference.
Didn't that slimeball Calipari
Coach Memphis in the NC game?
If you don't like my fire then don't come around...
VCU and Butler
show that playing tough non conference games is pointless. Don’t play good teams, don’t get exposed.
Welcome to the Sound Pound...
yea
I’m pretty sure our schedule has been overkill, but i’m not sure it makes a difference either way when it’s all said and done. As a fan its fun to watch the team play against top competition. But we’ve already been exposed for years. There’s a flaw in the system. We can’t play defense in transition or guard the 3 pointer.
Hey cyber muscles
I would love for you to go up to a guy like Mark Few and tell him that he is fired after all that he has done for Gonzaga basketball. Grab a clue son! We are blessed to have a coach like Few. Learn the game. Learn the college landscape before you start calling out for coaches job’s. There only a handful of coaches out there better than Few. You seem to have this all figured out my man. You seem to know whats best for Gonzaga sitting behind your keyboard. Who would you put in there? People like you like to point out what is wrong with things and never give a solution. I guess twelve 20 + win seasons aren’t enough for a guy like you.
who knows
maybe I could be a good coach, I have a ton of passion for the game. I’m sure I could coach the team to a few WCC victories. I’m just starting to grow restless with not being able to advance past the sweet 16 in 12 years. I’m hopeful for these next 4 years, I think we have a great recruiting class, and Sacre and Harris in the front court for the 3rd year in a row is going to be special.
Some people are fine with just reaching the tournament every year, and that’s ok, but I’m a really competitive guy, I want to eventually make a final 4 run.
Not so sure
I am not so sure you could. First all of the existing players would transfer. Then you are going to have to go out to homes and try and find players that would even come to GU, with you as the coach and no experience. You might get some, but they would not be the elite type players that we are getting now. Passion does not get good players, experience, know how, and trust does.
Look how many years it took GU to get to a point where we could start getting top recruits. It takes time, PASSION, and showing that you can get them to perform.
Maybe
You read this post a little too literally…
by GU.AmericasTeam on Mar 31, 2011 7:29 AM PDT up reply actions
no
I am sorry but I have to disagree with this entirely . . . VCU was lucky to get into the tournament (and probably shouldn’t have), and just because they made the final four doesn’t mean that the hundreds of mid majors that came before them that didn’t make the final four and never scheduled tough games are irrelevant. You have to believe that much of VCU’s success has come from the massive chip on their shoulder and that was created mostly by the media freaking out.
I am saying nothing new...guards, especially point guards, drive tournament success
I want GBJ or Pangos, or a further beefed up DS, to be our Courtney V!!!
by mattzag72 on Mar 29, 2011 11:04 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Yeah, can we find a way to draft Courtney V in the WNBA draft so she can play PG for us?
She’s about as big as Stockton and Meech.
by BulldogsNotZags on Mar 29, 2011 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Gonzaga proved it can be done consistently
other teams such as Butler are benefitting from what the Zags proved possible.
Gonzaga will be in the tournament next season.
Gonzaga has had multiple players go into the NBA recently: Turiaf, Morrison, Dickau, Frahm, Daye, and many others are making big bucks in Europe [and when they play on the road they probably do not have to see a subway on every block].
To answer question, though,,,
I think wondering is always appropiate, but I am not worried.
We had a dip the last couple years, IMO,, but i like our direction, and our near future…
And if our "dip"...
…is ONLY winning two more conference titles (and one conference tourney) and ONLY winning one game in the NCAA Tourney in each of those two seasons (handily against good east coast teams,) and ONLY winning over 20 games in those seasons, then I guess we are still doing OK.
I am as frustrated at coming up short as anyone, but we have definitely fallen short in the luck department. We MIGHT have made the final four in ‘06 when we choked away a 17 pt lead to UCLA who decided to play its best 15 mins of basketball of the season when we decided to play our worst 15 mins. Even at that, we probably still win if Erroll Knight doesn’t foul out or JP Batista doesn’t turn into a marshmallow statue in the final 30 seconds. We MIGHT have made the final four in ’09 if we play ANYBODY but UNC in the sweet 16. Who knows what would have happened if we had been seeded higher than 6th in ’02 when we ranked 6th in country and got stuck playing a ridiculously hot shooting Wyoming in the first round.
Am I frustrated at seeing three VCU, George Mason, and Butler (x2) make the Final Four before Gonzaga since we defined the term “high-mid-major?” Damn straight! Do I want to blow up what we have to hope somebody else can get us over that hump? No way! Eventually, talent, leadership, DEFENSE, and that so elusive “LUCK” will all line up and we will have something to root for the first weekend of April.
In the mood!
Just feels right this rainy, rainy morning to gather some thoughts on GU and tackle Max’s challenge. I’ll make some general statements then proceed to how GU is fitting into those categories, IMO.
Senior players on a team usually equates to great chemestry on the floor. If those seniors have been starters and together for the 4 -5 years that should add additional stock to their presense on the floor. If those seniors were high IQ, that adds more, athletic, more and so on. With the one and done scenario coaches have to contend with in college, it makes it very difficult to build consistency throughout a 4-5 year class of recruits. Hence, the 1-2-3-4 year seniors! These include, the 5 year redshirt, the JC and small college transfer and the D-1 to D-1 players, that can make up those seniors!
Most of the big 6 league dominate schools lose players to the NBA, Europe, Grades, Discipline (trouble with the law). They also tend to recruit the higher skilled more athletic players in the Country. It’s very unusual to see a Senior led Duke or Kentucky or UCONN team.
Defensive play on the floor is a tough issue to break down. Philosophy of coaches, matchups and style of play and finally skill level and mindset of players on your team all enter into the schemes you try to develop. While, to me, this is the BIGGEST problem at GU, I’ll move on and return to it later.
Recruiting players to your program that meet your criteria is the hardest nut to crack of all. In the late 80’s I had an opportunity to scout HS players in Wa, Oregon and Idaho for a friend who was coaching at PLU. In our meetings prior to the season, coach layed out his philosophy of the game, the type of character of the player he was looking for, the athletic skill level and the most important factor to him within all of those necessary attributes was BB IQ and mental toughness.
Now to the hard truth of the post, where is GU at and what do they do to get to be like those Elite group of teams that have found the formula to win?
As I stated above, the correct foundation for GU’s move to the next level should start with seniors on the floor. However, this class of seniors is not what I feel is the right type of senior leadership to do the job, especially with their overall BB skill’s. None of the group posses the high BBIQ needed along with the mental toughness to be the leader. It’s innate and doesn’t grow on trees! This is where you recruit it! Recognizing that skill is difficult but those types of kids come from all over. It doesn’t have to be your point guard but it’s so much better if it is. The guards coming in should fit that mold. I can vouch for 3 of them on the BBIQ and mental toughness issues currently lacking now. DS, could be the exception.
Moving on to Defense! This is by far the worst defensive skilled team GU has had since I’ve been watching them going back to 1996. The games we won this year that were meaningful were won on the offensive end not the defensive end. Mental toughness is the main requirement for great defensive play. You must be willing to play it all out on the floor when on “D”. Good defensive players are anticipators not reaction players. Defensive fundementals are clearly lacking in the past 2 years of recruits at GU. To me, it’s obvious that the players outside the US we recruited were sorely lacking in those skills which have led to the current poor finish at the elite level, not the WCC level. You can fix that 2 ways, recruit or teach it……………!
I really like this class coming in including Chris Sarbaugh. Multi skilled, high BBIQ and fundamentally sound players. With the exception of GB, the other 4 will be 4-5 year players and that brings me back to Max’s point about Senior leadership. This recruiting class will have it! So if you got the leadership, the point guard, the shooters, hopefully tough rebounder, mentally tough anticipating defenders, all you need is the Coach!
Don’t expect miracles next year but do expect a 25 game win season. We’re heading in the right direction, we just got off the main highway the past 2 years!
Great post Max.
Worst defense since 1996? We only win due to our offense? I think you must be referring to Morrison’s junior season (2006) when we ranked 178th in defensive efficiency and 1st in offensive efficiency. Or maybe 2005 when we were 121st in defense and 10th in offense? (Fun Fact: we were the least blocked offense in the country that year)
The last matchup against St. Mary’s, we held them to their second lowest point total of the season (only San Deigo St. did better). We also scored below our average for that game, so I think the defensive intensity helped. The big reason we didn’t bring that intensity against Jimmer is because Meech did and it drew him two quick fouls.
We could certainly use some better perimeter defense, but we could also turn the ball over a lot less (most important reason for BBIQ, which you are right on about).
Don’t count out Meech and Sacre as leaders next year – they are both the best two defenders out of our starters and Sacre has a lot more fire than the laid-back Gray.
Anyway, thanks for the post: I find you the most informed and informative commenter on this site. Perhaps my ignorance fuels my optimism.
by Pyrrhuloxia on Mar 30, 2011 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
We were great defending the 2
top 10 in the nation in opponents 2 point percentage, kenpom had our defense being more efficient than our offense. I actually thought our defense this year was the key to our turnaround and an improvement over the years. The downfall of our team was the +/- ratio of 3 pointers. We were ranked 319 on kenpom in percentage of points allowed from 2pt fg, and we were ranked 21st in percentage of points allowed from 3 pt (33.3%)out of a possible 345 teams. Generally teams with great interior defense force teams to score from the perimeter. We were also ranked 297 in 3point fg% defense
Of course, perhaps things are so easy from Three Point Land teams just don’t bother with the two…
by Pyrrhuloxia on Mar 31, 2011 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
To sum it up!
If any of you think we are going anywhere with a 5’l0 150p. pg who shoots over his shoulder, doesn’t defend, and his ablsolutley no upside then you are mistaking! Unfortunatley we are going to have to put up with his playing time for 3 more seasons. I just hope our influx of young talent can put up with somebody that shouldn’t be playing D-1 ball eating up everyone else’s playing time. DS shouldn’t ever sniff the floor, and don’t care what anybody say’s the moment he entered the game against BYU is when the wheels fell off
Let me ask you
So would you say that David Stockton added no value to the team this past season?
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by Zach Bell on Mar 30, 2011 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Stockton's Not Perfect...
But come on! I would take a pass-first point guard with some athletic flaws than a tentative, can’t pass point guard who has athleticism (especially when we don’t utilize that athletic point guards strength on the defensive end)
Supporting the Giants, Niners, Sharks, Warriors, Golden Bears and Zags since 1987
I agree
I’m just trying to figure out where montanazag stands on David last year. I think he contributed plenty to last year’s team.
I also couldn’t agree more with this:
(especially when we don’t utilize that athletic point guards strength on the defensive end)
Meech’s defensive skills will always be undervalued in such a sleepy defensive scheme.
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Good Point
We could use some more pressing (sure as hell works for VCU). Haven’t people on this board been complaining that we are recruiting athletes over other skill-sets? Let’s put ’em to work then.
How did the Lady Bulldogs finally stop Louisville’s resurgence when their second half lead shrunk from 20 points to 3 points? They started pressing and Louisville’s momentum fell apart.
How did we make St. John’s press blow up in their faces?
We pressed them right back.
Don't knock Stock
What that kid lacks in size he more than makes up for in SMARTS.
Zach!
DS added a little value during WCC action! And I think if Meech got those minutes we would have seen similar results! Few would pull meech 5 minutes into the game and we wouldn’t see the young man for awhile? I really could care less anymore how our team does agaisnt WCC competition which is the only place DS will ever even come close to holding his own! Bottom line is this, Mark Few feels inclined to playing the young man, there is obviously some pressure involved here, politically speaking! So Zach, to add to your question, yes he added value, but was it quality value? His limitations killed us against big time competition!
I don't understand the term
quality value. Either the guy picked up where his team needed him or he didn’t. DS earned his time last season by doing things our other PG option didn’t, not by who his Dad is. Personally, I think that (who his father is) is a crap excuse.
DS provided a spark in many games late in the WCC season. I believe that without his contributions it is possible GU doesn’t even make the Dance. Going forward do I see him getting a ton of time? I’d say unlikely, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a huge help last season.
by GU.AmericasTeam on Mar 31, 2011 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions
DS help?
In many games Meech wasn’t on the floor enough to do anything! I think he could have, if given the opportunity? Meech played well down the stretch for this team in less minutes. DS hasn’t showed up in a non big time WCC game yet! And in my opinion doesn’t have the skill set or size to ever do so! So, going back to the title of this post, we will never get out of week 1 with DS as our PG, or DS chewing up 20 minutes a game! Sure we might beat WCC competition with DS, outside our conference nobody else cares about that, and it is starting to show that our conference, non-conference schedule isn’t preparing us for the tournament! We have been blown out 4 years in a row now to end our season! I don’t see DS ever helping us avoid that situation. Eventually to get anywhere in the tourney you have to beat quality opponents!
Not giving up on Stockton yet
He was an undersized RS freshman this year. If he grows and gets more athletic, he could be a force in the coming years. I’m assuming he will improve next year as that seems to be the case with ALL players. He showed flashes of brilliance last year, then followed that up with bouts of poor performances. Looks normal, unless you are Austin Daye or John Wall.
I will point out the obvious, his dad wasn’t expected to amount to anything either.
I’m expecting Kelly O. to shine this coming year. He grew two inches last year, which made him awkward and messed up his long range shooting. Assuming he doesn’t come in at 7’2" next year.
by Ken McIntyre on Mar 31, 2011 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions
really?
people just don’t grow and get more athletic, unfortunatley his DNA can’t be changed. I’m pretty sure he isn’t going to get any taller or faster. He might get stronger if spends some time the weight room. His dad whom I watched live on several occasions, was very athletic and a legit 6’1-6’2. There really shouldn’t be any comparisons between the two.
Totall agree
Pop’s Stockton was a legit 6’2" with better than average strenght for his size….he still can do some amazing amount of pull ups…there should be no comparison between the two…what they have in common is a last name.
Also, IMO…by mid season…Pangos will take any Minutes DS or Meech hope to play next year.
If you don't like my fire then don't come around...
what I typed along with my "totally agree"
Pop’s Stockton was a legit 6’2" with better than average strenght for his size….he still can do some amazing amount of pull ups…there should be no comparison between the two…what they have in common is a last name.
Also, IMO…by mid season…Pangos will take any Minutes DS or Meech hope to play next year.
If you don't like my fire then don't come around...
Really minute nitpick here
But I met Stock senior face to face, I am 5’11’’ in shoes, 5’9.5 barefoot, really felt like I looked him eye to eye,,, am guessing he is not much over 6 ft. in shoes…
Beyond that, yes, he is REALLY strong, maybe not weight room strong, but, the type who has baleen wire for muscles, and I will never forget, reading in my 1986, or something like that, handbook of NBA players, reading that Stock was the fastest end to end player in the league… plus quick hands, plus, mean as heck!
I hate all the comparisons between DS and Johnny Utah…
I do believe in DS though; I think he is a tough kid, and will make his own name, one way or another..
ok, ok
Don’t get riled. I wasn’t saying he was the answer. I figure he might go into a bigger role IF he improves physically. I saw improvement in his play during last season. THAT is why I’m not giving up on him yet. Obviously you have. I’m fine with that. We’ll see.
Also, Few is busy signing recruits that could very easily have both Stockton and Meech earning a lot of bench time next season. I’m fine with that too. Very fine.
I'm just hoping in the offseason
he gets bigger and stronger and improves his jumpshot. If he does that then he should have a solid career at Gonzaga and even be competitive against strong athletic players.
3 years from now
is what I’m talking about. The new kids will be JR’s, or redshirted sophs, or medical redshirted sophs, and none will have gone pro, yet. Talented AND experienced guard play with Dower and the Oklahoma kid will be as sweet as finding half filled syrup bottles at a campground.
Until then this team will continue to be very good with guys like Sacre and Goodson holding down the fort. And who knows, maybe everything will click a bit early?
"Be smooth, like me!"
I love the 5 the paragraph.
it is so true. Our defensive intensity is not consistent from game to game. There is something that Brad Stevens does to motivate, and his players play SO DAMN HARD. That is what we need, is to be more prepared mentally to play 100% when it matters most.
I don't hate many things, but i do hate Boise State.
by spokanistan22yuh on Mar 30, 2011 11:09 AM PDT reply actions
next year
A lot of people here are thinking that senior leadershiup will be the key next year. I don’t think so because I just see more turgid offense and sloppy three point D with seniors Carter, Meech and Rob. There simply isn’t that much talent among the three. I think as things shake out, Few will find himself going more and more with his freshman. They are so much more talented. Bell can defend and Pangos is a quick study who will learn to defend. Spangler, from all I read, is a very coachable sort and doesn’t take plays off.
Draino and Sarbaugh might redshirt, more likely Draino. I think Elias gets fewer minutes next year (assuming he returns) unless his D improves by 75 percent. Also unless Rob improves his ball handling and passing skills, I think he loses minutes to Kelly—maybe by next year Daniels will impress on Kelly the fact that he is not going to be the next Steve Nash. Get in there and bang and block.
Perimeter D
If you look at the last two years and the bad beats that led to GU’s departure from the tourney, there exists one consistent theme: lack of perimeter defense. Syracuse blew up just as much in 2010 as BYU did this year from beyond the arch. While some WCC matchups help prepare for this (SMU, SCU), it is not something the Bulldogs have handled well in post season play. Consider this: BYU shot 50% of 3’s in 2011’s matchup, Syracuse shot 48%. Conversely, GU shot 21% and 14%.
When you cannot defend the 3, you will get beat everytime. In 2010 against Syracuse, Gonzaga lost by 22, the difference between 3 pointers made by Syracuse and GU was 9. A 27 point delta. The same situation existed this year.
I am a huge believer in there is nothing to fear in the post for 2012. Sacre, Dower and Olynyk will be intimidating. We must, must, must have better perimeter D. I am talking drills after drills emphasizing this point. With the squad retiurning in 2012, scoring, boards and inside D will not be an issue. Work on where we have continued to get beat and life will get better.
Fun Facts:
This year, no Final Four team is ranked in the top 60 for 3 Point Defense. Of course, all four are above average at it.
Only two teams in the 68-team NCAA Tournament had worse 3 Point Defense than Gonzaga: Wisconsin (the team VCU had the easiest time with) and… St. John’s.
What is needed to make the Final Four
Here is what teams need to make the Final Four. Many of these things have been said above and in different ways, but you only need these 3 things (besides being good at basketball)
1. Great Guard play
2. Defense
3. A little bit of luck
1. Guards rule March. They always have and they always will. Will someone please tell me the last team to make the FF without great guard play? All 4 teams have it this year. Zags had a great inside game this year the guards just weren’t good enough plan and simple. Stockton took over the majority of the minutes at mid-season b/c Few new that was the only way to turn the ship around. WCC teams know how to play Meech and he just can’t get it done against them for some reason. DS was a great move by Few that is what got the Zags back to the dance. (that and the emergence of MC who plays better with DS) Then in the tourney you have to go back to Meech b/c DS just doesn’t match up physically (yet) Sorry Meech or DS aren’t going to get it done. DS however is young, I think he can and will grow into a very good back-up PG for Gonzaga. Someone that everyone loves for 10-12 mins a game. So Max am I worried about Gonzaga in this department? No! GBJ and Pangos coming in next year. I think GBJ is PG from day 1 he steps on the court! and in 2012-13 I see Pangos and Bell as a 2 headed PG on the court together for 35 mins. I wouldn’t be surprised if Pangos really plays well that he might also steal a starting spot by the time the season is done. These two will lead Gonzaga to the FF at least once and at least 2 E8’s. They have all the tools to get the Zags there and they have that winning and hard working mantality about them. Few has shown (lately) that he will play whoever is better, whether you are a sr. or Fr. Walk-on or scholie player.
2. Defence: Now there is no way to sugar coat this. The Zags 3 pt D. sucks! But, on the bright side they do play good 2 pt D. I think Few and staff will watch tape of Butler (hopefully) and watch how they switch and defend the top of the key ball screen. As bad as the Zags were guarding the 3 at the beginning of the year and against BYU, I thought they did okay in the middle of the season. Now maybe that was the teams they were playing, maybe it was their D? Either way, Few will make that a point of emphisis from Day 1 of practice. GBJ is a great defender, RS is a great defender to help on the ball screens. Hopefully they can teach the kids the fundumentals, b/c they have the talent and ability to defend.
3. Luck. Now I think you make your own “good fortion” on the court, by hussling, being scrapy, diving on loose balls. By getting hot in a game (b/c you practice all offseason on your shot) By luck I mean, you get the seed you diserve (with the committe you need luck), you get matched up against teams you play well against, and lastly you don’t get screwed by the refs!
So am I worried about the Zags? No, I’m a little (lot) disapointed in the WAY they lost to BYU. But the future looks good. Real good. How do Butler’s and VCU’s recruiting classes look? 13 straight tourneys and counting. The Zags will make the FF in the next 4 years and 2 E8’s if not more! It’s April, you got to think that way.
Go Zags!
Butler vs. Gonzaga
Butler obviously wins the debate now between them and Gonzaga. Back to back trips to the ncaa final game, they know how to do get it done in the tournament; period. Mack and Vanzant just plain out get it done at the guard position. Hopefully the guard play of Gonzaga will elevate next year and help the zags make it to the sweet 16, possibly the elite eight. Thats the only way we will be able to start up the debate again between Butler and Gonzaga. But right now Butler clearly wins the debate.
Go Bulldogs (Gonzaga)
by Seattle-Husker-Zag_Fan on Apr 2, 2011 5:45 PM PDT reply actions
Wha? When did this link get on here?
I fan shotted the same story yesterday, lol.
Wonder whose was first? I didn’t see your link…we need to get on the same page because we are working twice as hard as we need too.
Its gonna be gLoRiOUS!!~
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