Gonzaga sneaks by Oral Roberts, 67-61
by Zach Bell on Dec 15, 2011 9:43 PM PST
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PrintIn a very lackluster performance, the Gonzaga Bulldogs outlasted the Golden Eagles of Oral Roberts tonight. It was one of those games where the entire time you are thinking "We've got this" and then with about three minutes later it turns into..."Oh, damn, we could actually lose this thing". In the end, the Bulldogs got some big shots down the stretch to overcome the Eagles but overall, this wasn't a confidence building effort.
The Zags had a number of times to blow this game wide open but once again struggled with consistency and it let Oral Roberts hang around and eventually get this game to a point where they really could have escaped with a win. Individually, there was also not a ton to write home about. Elias Harris was solid early on and finished with a double double but down the stretch, he was pretty non-existent. Kevin Pangos in my opinion had one of his better games. His success shooting the ball has really come to a screeching halt but hes doing a lot of things right: mainly creating plays and not turning the ball over.
The guy that stood out the most was Sam Dower. In 20 minutes of play, Sam was 6-7 from the floor with 12 points and four boards. While this isn't a 'breakout' game for Sam, it can hopefully be a jumping off point. When they are all effective, the combination of Sam, Elias, and Rob are one of the more dangerous frontcourts in the country. The inconsistency in the backcourt has made it so apparent that these veteran bigs have got to be better if this team wants to have a serious run come March.
Sugarcoating tonight's game is something I can't really do. It was very much in the 'blah' category and following two losses, it is pretty clear that this team is still trying to figure everything out. With a lot of young guys in their nucleus, I guess this should have been expected but I'm struggling to get over just how inconsistent the veterans have been, particularly Sam and Marquise. Hopefully tonight served as a booster to Sam but Marquise is in dire need of a game where he can hit some shots early on and settle into his game. We saw down the stretch just how good he can be.
The silver lining of tonight's game being over: It is time for Guy Landry Edi. The junior college transfer was suspended by the NCAA for the first eight games due to his participation on a French professional team when he was, get this, 15 years old. Regardless, the NCAA deemed this was an offense deserving of such a harsh penalty. Landry's arrival is greeted with tons of excitement as a huge hole for this Bulldogs' team is at the wing. Mike Hart has been solid on defense but other than that, Gonzaga has not gotten much out of the small forward spot. The hope is that Guy can provide some spark to a club that desperately needs it.
Guy's first contest: the Battle in Seattle against Arizona.
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my 2 points
While Sacre’s numbers’s have been okay he has not been dominant by any stretch of the imagination. I think we all expected Rob to be able to get the ball and make a quick decision after 4 years of play at Gonzaga. What is wrong with our post play development since Bautista? He should have had a 20/10 game against Oral Roberts at home. Instead Bell-Holter scores 16 while “big Rob” scores 9?. Is this lack of attack from the inside Few’s stratagy or is it all we can do with the skills we have.
Somebody HELP!!
Illinois, MSU, and tonight O.R. all did the same thing. Collapse on Sacre.
Double or triple Bobby when he gets the ball in the paint and he has to dump it off. That means the other guys have got to take and make good shots. Which they aren’t doing very well right now.
by DaveValleDrinkNight on Dec 16, 2011 2:55 AM PST up reply actions
No one seems to know how to make themselves an outlet for Rob.
After they feed it to him, everyone just seems to stand around and wait for him to score. Sure this might be the norm in practice situations but they need to start playing in the real world. I see other teams do it and Gonzaga used to be pretty good at it too. With double and triple collapse there should be open guys to dump off to. A good wing man would be able to back door in this situation.
back door!
you got it. some simple pass and go. back door cuts after passing it in to Rob. Hopefully we get this sorted out.
My take..
Rob still irritates the hell out of me…there was multiple times in the game where he should have exploded to the rim, one in particular where he was all alone and looked confused (Turiaf would have broke the damn rim) This is my problem with Rob, with his build @ 7 ft tall he should be breaking the rim but I have seen no improvement with that ever since he has been a Zag. Most of his points come from the line.
20 turnovers to Oral R 9…not going to cut it, if we do this against AZ we will get crushed. This has been consistent the last few games, avg nearly 20 TO absolutely disgusting.
On the bright side we turned the ball over 20 times and still managed to pull out a win, Pangos has been rusty from 3 but eventually he will get more consistent beyond the ARC, GB is looking good, we get EDI back! I also think Spangler came in and gave some good minutes other than 1 bad TO.
Limit the damn turnovers and we will win some big games!!! No more telegraphing passes.
JSH
Disagree about Rob.
I actually think we are getting decent production out of Rob. IMO about what one would expect. IMO, it is what it is. We all expect him to get the ball 5 feet from the rim, making a strong move and then finishing thunderously. I think he’s doing his part. I think your memory is a tad short regarding Turiaf. I would argue that Rob is more productive and consistent. Granted Turiaf would contribute an occasional highlight reel finish. I remember a lob against UMd in the BB&T Classic.
We expect more from Rob IMO because we’re deficient other places. A team like Gonzaga, with arguably 2nd tier recruits, can NEVER be weak at the 1,2, and/or 3. These positions are “a dime a dozen”. Solid D1 players that can do their jobs. Like running backs and receivers in football. That and Harris not stepping up is what is hurting us, not the production of Sacre.
Don't despair all!
I think they were okay tonight. Not top 25 yet but we’re getting steady play from the frosh guards and both stepping up and making big shots. Saw a flash of old Sam tonight and I think we’ll start to see more of that. We should’ve won this by 14-16 points tonight but we are just not a good defensive team with D Stock in the game, especially teamed with Pangos. He gambles too much, helps too hard and gives up or causes too many open shots. We need that solid 5th player on both offense and defense and we are all hoping for Edi to do it. If he does we will be pretty tough. If not, then maybe we can despair a bit. If we can get a hard fought win against zona i think we’ll be back on track. So keep the faith everyone. Lots of season left.
Saw some good things out there last night!
I agree with IDFAN. I thought we looked okay tonight. To me, we took good open shots and Kevin Pangos looked very solid on the free throw line. In a point guard, you want someone that will make his free throws when the opportunities arise. Kevin has a beautiful stroke at the line, and he could become another Derek Ravio with time! Wouldn’t that be sweet!
Sam looked like the beast of old. He seemed to really be in the game and wasn’t worried about trying to "go to his right" and, instead, did what came natural for him. He looked awesome with the ball in his hands! Elias looked solid on the boards, and I’m really impressed with how much better his rebounding is this year! He really goes after the ball hard on every miss!
It was good to see Ryan Spangler in the game, especially since he’s an Oklahoma boy. He did some nice things while in there. I think if he concentrates on his defense and rebounding, he will get more and more minutes and his improvement will skyrocket.
Overall, I was pleased with our defensive effort, although the sloppiness with the ball and the turnovers made me cringe at times! If we can eliminate some of those silly turnovers, we are going to be a very tough team to beat! Let’s have a good, error-free game and beat Arizona on Saturday!
Good defense saved them tonight.
Defense and David Stockton.
by DaveValleDrinkNight on Dec 16, 2011 2:58 AM PST reply actions
that’s an oxy moron — one or the other.
Stockton had an OK night: 2 pts, 5 asts, 4 TO’s, 1 stl.
Pangos had a poor shooting night, he still finished with 14 pts(8-8 FT & worked hard for every foul), 7 asts, 1 TO, 1 stl. Gotta dig 7:1 assist-to-turnover ratio.
After...
over-helping and having to recover. They scored anyway. Please Coach Few once Edi is back don’t play Stocks and Pangos together so much!!! It was that defensive unit that took a 12 point lead late in the 2nd half and turned it into a 2 point lead. You close out teams with defense and that unit can’t get it done.
Gonzaga is still playing too sloppy.
I have yet to see someone step into the dominant player role.
Passing the ball needs work – this is where most of the turnovers happen.
More plays need to be developed for Sacre to dump off when the defense collapses on him.
Too many blown defensive coverages.
Eliminate scoring droughts!
Put the nail in the coffin and close out games stronger.
Hopefully these things will be dealt with and improved upon as the season progresses.
It would be a rare day . . .
I wish we had more true jump shooters who can catch and shoot besides GB (and MM who isn’t going to get the chance). Most of the time if we do kick it out, MC won’t shoot, Stockton can only do it as set shot. Pangos is somewhere in between, but he’s quick to get it off. I notice the other teams have guys who simply elevate where they stand when they catch the ball. See it in high school all the time, but not so much with GU over the years.
Some bright spots
The defense on the 17-2 run was some of the best I’ve seen out of the Zags. O-R couldn’t do a thing during that stretch. If this team can play consitently at that level the can compete with almost everyone.
A game of Runs...
Yeah that was definately a nice run sparked by defense….But we give up many runs on our end in every game, we were up by 12 in the 2nd half and it was quickly cut down to 3. We need to play consistent and we are not, I am yet to see a complete game. I believe there are a number of teams in our conference better than OR….and much better perimeter scorers…so this just concerns me moving forward. Oral Roberts had many looks behind the arc because of some defensive breakdowns but just couldnt burry them.
I do see good things though. Pangos assist/to ratio is good, Bell, Dower hopefully gained some confidence…we have a tough test tomorrow, hopefully we limit turnovers.
JSH
Marquise Carter
Am I the only one who thinks Edi will make MC irrelevant?
last three games...
16 to’s 20 to’s 17 to’s = 53 TO’s total
that was 4 more than Illinois / 5 more than Mich St / 8 more than ORU. That means that GU gave up a chance to score on their end and in turn, gave back a chance to score to their opponent 17 times in the last 3 games! To really understand this, you have to look at the two sides of this coin…it is a chance to score for the other team and one taken away fromGU. That is not +2 or 3 for the other team alone. That is a +2 or 3 for the other team and a -2 or 3 potential for GU. One TO that could have resulted in a made 2 for GU but in turn resulted in a +2 for the other team is a 4pt swing. That is huge!
let’s assume that GU converts 40% of these would be chances and the other team does the same….assuming they each make 2 pt that would be a 36 pt swing in favor of the last 3 teams just off of TO difference alone. That is an average of 12 pt a game GU is losing just in TO deferential. Maybe GU shoots better on these would be maybe they don’t…the same goes for the other team too I suppose….but GU is giving away a ton of points and at the same time robbing themselves of points.
All this is to say, GU takes care of the ball, even to the degree their opponent does…they are undefeated right now….instead of 6-2.
If you don't like my fire then don't come around...
I'll agree with your last statement
Young guards = turnovers.
mjc
by quidveritas on Dec 16, 2011 11:25 AM PST up reply actions
Exactly
Mattydog73 if we limit 1/2 or a 1/4 of these turnovers and convert on 1/2 of those we would be undefeated right now IMO…but as quidveritas stated young guards=turnovers, that is true, but I think its the veterans that are turning the ball over more right now, Carter, Dower, Stocks(not really a vet). Turnovers are so big, we go on huge runs but than go on runs of turning the ball over in 5/6 possesions, it is painful to watch.
Hoping we can start growing out of this TO problem moving forward.
JSH
If we only did this or that
We can’t let ourselves get stuck in this position. The truth is you have no idea what would have happened if the game were different. Just because one aspect is improved, that does not mean we win.
We can always say “if we guarded the 3 better,” “if we only rebounded more.”
Yes, we need to turn the ball over less. I just find it a cop out to say that if we turned the ball over less that we would be undefeated.
so...
TO are not significant?
18,19,20 turnovers etc has a siginificant impact on any game we play…against any team…
a cop out…maybe not undefeated at least one of those games against Illinois or Mich State we would have won…maybe both.
And thos what ifs your talking about will win us games…that is basketball, rebound, defense and take care of the ball.
JSH
cop out?
please. Mich State scored 23 points off of TO’s. They won by 7. Do the math.
If you don't like my fire then don't come around...
A turnover is simply a stat. A headache is a condition. What causes these things?
Let’s treat the cause of the problem. Doctors too often treat the condition, rather than what causes the condition. Ice on my knee, but not the leg length discrepancy that makes my knee sore.
Of course turnovers are important. What kind of argument is that?
Now- get serious- how do we address the problem? Players not getting open, poor ball-handling, players taking too many risks, floor spacing, passing fundamentals, handling pressure, poor press break fundamentals.
A turnover is an empty possession. A possession that you cannot score. Often not even a shot is taken. Dean Smith used to chart productivity of possessions daily, even in practice.
TO is a stat...yes...
and my point in this case was to point out that our inability to value every possession is costing us in a greater measure than we realize. well more so than I feel most peeps seem to realize.
If you read any of my posts you would know my thoughts on the need for balance when it comes to the value of stats conversation….so the “cause argument” is preaching to the choir.
As is stated below, it is our Key stat right now. The Battle in Seattle shows this as well. 5 TO’s for the team…most every possession had a shot attempt…at least a chance to score….along with not giving these chances to the other team.
The causes of TO’s for this team is varied but the main driver of a team that takes care of the ball is a mentality…that is taught by the coaching staff…that every possession counts. If you are lackadaisical with the ball and careless…you will not execute the fundamentals.
So IMO it starts with this, the second is floor spacing…GU has always been terrible with this, the third is the post player maintaining position as the ball comes to him…Sacre is terrible at this and it causes a lot of TO’s / Harris is weak with the ball, this allows the D to take it way from him, Carter telegraphs everything he does, and GBJ, Pangos are freshman they are going to make mistakes…lastly Dower just needs to catch the ball….I saw a difference in execution against AZ…and to me it was a change in mentality that drove this.
If you don't like my fire then don't come around...
i will agree with mattydog
turnovers are our key stat this year… we have rebounders, shooters, etc… run the offense, keep them honest, avoid turnovers, we have a better than average chance!
One poster ( T good) said they were let down that Illini, who they said was clearly better than us, lost to UNLV…!
First, as someone else already alluded to… Illini probably lose to us at home… UNLV also beat North Carolina… And dingbat.. every year, teams in the final four have lost to teams that were eliminated in the first round, or didn’t make the tourney…
Last year, we beat Xavier, and Xavier beat Butler,,,should WE have played in the national championship?
Pretty sure you are a troll anyway, but get real!
It's about time for Mike Hart
He has it in him to hit those shots, i really believe that. And at this point, to compete with Guy (who we STILL have not seen play a D1 game, although some seem to have and he was amazing) Mike is going to have to shoot those open shots, and hit a few.
He will shoot it, Carter wont
D sags against both, really sad to see, didn’t happen the 2nd half of last season.
that was a good feeling
watching him hit the biggest shot of the game, hopefully he can build on that and become a legitimate 3 point threat.
I think Pangos
is playing too many minutes. I wouldn’t be opposed to see Gary Bell running the point at times, with Edi at the 2 and Hart at the 3. The thing I’ve noticed about Pangos is that he makes good decisions, but he isn’t really a playmaker. He doesn’t have the quickness to get past his guy and force help defense. I believe Stockton and Bell are quicker and better playmakers, although Stockton plays very risky in which his turnovers could let a team back into the game or stretch a lead.
That's the point I've been trying to make!
Not just Pangos. Nobody really has the ability to break down defenses off the dribble. Leads to fewer open shots, like 3s, and easier opportunities for our bigs. The middle is often clogged.
Coaching x and o alternative: get in the open court as much as possible. Our guys can finish, they just can’t create. Transition Transition Transition. Press- at least half court or three quarter court. I think we look good pressing. “Guru of Go”
Can't see GBJ at the point
I have yet to see him make a ‘tough’ pass all year. From someone running the point, I would like to see the ability to do more than pass the ball from the top to a wing (meech). Maybe GBJ is a great passer, but he sure as hell hasn’t shown it this year.
Honestly, when we don’t have matchup issues, i love Pangos, Stockton, and Bell on the floor at the same time. All legitimate threats from 3 so the defense cannot sag down on Harris and Sacre. I feel like it is our best scoring offense by far, although rarely does this lineup do very well on the defensive end due to lack of size.
BYU-Baylor
Interesting game today at 2 eastern. Obviously BYU is in our crosshairs. WCC IMO is our way to get a ticket to the dance. Just pressed record on my DVR for the game on DirecTv- channel 374- BYUTv. A cartoon about the Book of Virtues is on right now.
CBS has the Memphis- Louisville game on here instead of the Zags-Zona. Root for me guys!
Go Zags!
Off topic!
Watched Zach Lavine against Garfield………………..Sorta reminded me of the Zags circumstances………………Gu plays 4-5 and Bothell plays 2-5. Zach had a good night with 37 but was hounded fairly well. He’s a scorer, no doubt but I don’t see him plsying in Mark Fews program………he just doesn’t fit. Looking for a good game from our 4-5 team tonight and hope we sub early!
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