December Arrives: What does Gonzaga absolutely need to succeed?
by Zach Bell on Dec 1, 2011 12:44 PM PST
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PrintWriting my quick post-game recap last night, I really couldn't help but feel weird. Gonzaga was 5-0, November was over, and we just knocked out a Big East team by 20 points. Rather than bouncing off the walls with jubilation, I can't help but feel anxiety. Gonzaga showed a number of outstanding things in the month of November, but it was against a collection of very weak opposition. As Illinois, Michigan State, Butler, Arizona, Xavier and others all await the Zags in December, I have a number of questions and 'wish list' items that I think this team needs to have a successful December. Personally, I define success in this context as having zero or one loss in the month. It is a tough stretch but a large portion is at home. Illinois and Xavier on the road will be huge tests but both are absolutely winnable games.
With that said, here are a few things that I think need to be addressed before we make leaping statements about this team:
1. Veteran Consistency: Gonzaga's depth is proving to be an incredible asset but offensively, the Zags need the offensive play of Marquise Carter, Sam Dower, and Elias Harris to improve. With a number of young contributors, these three really need to be models of efficiency.
2. Three point defense: The past two games, Gonzaga has fared well in terms of defensive three point percentage. Notre Dame shot 14% from deep and Western Michigan made 1/3 of their threes. With that said, Eastern Washington, WSU, and Hawaii were all 45%+ from deep.
3. Turnovers: Each Zag that averages over 10 minutes per game is also averaging at least a turnover a game. EDIT: Errr...I can't read. Gonzaga as a team is averaging 13 turnovers a game which is close to worst in the country. Marquise Carter is averaging nearly three a game and Elias Harris averages a couple per contest. What is scary is that these numbers all come for the most part in the friendly confines of the MAC. These could balloon as the Bulldogs hit the road.
4. Freshmen: Kevin Pangos leads the team in minutes per game and Gary Bell is fifth. Both, in my opinion, have been outstanding so far in their early college career but when you rely so heavily on freshmen, there is always that fear of them hitting a wall. At this point, I think Mark Few would just be well served by buy completely into both freshmen and let them loose. Gary Bell in particular hasn't gotten enough minutes in my view. I'd guess that we see his playing time increase quite a bit in December.
Those are the things on my list that I am anxious about in December. I think #1 can really solve a lot of the other questions I have but there are obviously a number of variable here.
What are some of the things you will be watching for in December or are you happy as can be with what you have seen so far?
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I noticed
multiple times Few trying to control Bell, telling him to slow down and not rush things. I’m hoping this doesn’t turn him into a passing machine. Gary Bell needs to be in attack mode when he is on the court and not afraid to shoot the ball or make a mistake.
Well the first two games of the year he looked lost and out of control because he was too hurried.
Since then he’s been really good. I think it’s good to reign him in a bit.
I like the rotation so far...
Except for Mike Hart. The idea that Few was making a point (that practicing hard and playing good defense is important) made sense at first, but it seems difficult to justify him starting over Monninghoff or even Bell. Playing three guards might make it hard to man up on the defensive end, but it kind of feels like we’re playing 4 on 5 on offense, and that’s accounting for Hart’s really terrific game last night.
Honestly, we’ve been solid to great on offense each game despite Carter not playing really well and we even managed to keep the other team’s 3pt % pretty low. I have to admit that I’m somewhat satisfied. I don’t think we’ll get through this stretch unscathed but this team has a much higher ceiling than it did last year.
Shaq as an undercover cop:
Shaq: yo man, can I score some dope?
Dealer: Motherf****r, you shaq.
by kguner on Dec 1, 2011 1:39 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Hart
I’m now solidly on the Hart train. He caused ND to turn it over on their first possession of the game. He gets offensive boards. He takes charges. He is a gadfly on the defensive end.
While I could do without him shooting 3s, he seems to be developing on offense. When Edi is eligible, his minutes should decrease, but for now I like what he brings.
Zach, I agree with your points.
I’m also cautiously optimistic about what lies ahead and realistic about what we’ve seen so far.
I am actually more impressed with our defense than I am about our offense. I think that Mark Few generally coaches an up-tempo style. This year I actually think that the tempo is coming from our D. In the beginning of the year it just seemed like our guys were just running around, not really dictating much on D. Lately we are creating deflections, steals, and blocks, and don’t let me jinx us, challenging and disrupting jumpers. That was a beautiful steal by Marquise when the ball-handler turned his back last night.
I think at this point of the season, the O is not able to play at this same pace or tempo. Lots of turnovers and open trips down the offensive end. I coach this way a lot myself, and sometimes my teams look too rushed and hyper on O as a result of the helter skelter D. I think GU will grow into it. Rob and E looked infinitely better together last night compared to other games. Even saw a couple high- low post looks. Dower looks like he’s trying to hang on to a runaway locomotive. Out of sync.
One big warning about up-tempo and veteran/crusty coaching compatriots of mine always warn me about is: there is always somebody out there that does it better than you do. Example- UNC. Remember our round of 32 matchup with them the year they won it all. Our style matched up with them was like spraying lighter fluid on a fire.
Anyway, I’m getting excited about this. Good big man matchup with Illinois. Go Zags!
5-0 says it all
Where is all this anxiety coming from?
GU is on a roll. Winning can be contagious!
I think Few has a perfect game plan for this year and another for next year already in place. You’d have to be blind not to see it!
The starters are in there because they have earned their minutes and they play with an intensity that you didn’t see a lot of last year. That’s because the second wave IS going to get some serious minutes of its own. That group might well be the starting five next year.
By rotating the two groups, the Freshmen get a chance to see the opposition and benefit from the experience of the guys on the floor. As they are introduced (not as a line change but quite often you eventually see that entire second group eventually make its way onto the floor) you actually see the intensity pickup on both ends of the floor.
There is no let down offensively. There is no let down defensively. The transition game is actually better with Stocks running the point.
Few has to be having a lot of fun with this group!
I once coached a team like this. My biggest problem was all the complaints about who was getting all the minutes and running up the score on the other team (which could not be helped — it didn’t matter which players were on the floor we were still way better than the competition). I will predict you will see both types of these complaints being made as the year goes on.
More than anything I love the defensive effort that we are seeing on the floor. Other than some great individual efforts, I don’t remember seeing this kind of defense being played by earlier Zag teams. This is what Memphis used to do to us!
I’m happy as can be right now and look forward to seeing this team develop and become even more dominate.
Go Zags!
mjc
i doubt you will see any complaints about running the score up on the other team. Who would complain about that?
by DanielwMathews on Dec 1, 2011 4:30 PM PST up reply actions
You would be surprised
In my case it was the school board and the superintendent of schools. Running up the score was “unsportsmanlike”.
Other coaches also get a bit perturbed if they think you are piling it on.
mjc
i can understand in HS...
or wherever you coached (yes im feeling too lazy to just read above and see if you mentioned it), but i highly doubt any of our games will be to the point that anyone complains about us running up the score
by DanielwMathews on Dec 1, 2011 8:03 PM PST up reply actions
Both teams have their fans
GU fans won’t be complaining about running up the score but there are the folks on the other side of the gym.
Over the years, Few has called off the dogs on a number of occasions.
mjc
well feel free to make me eat my words when it happens....
but i dont see it happening
by DanielwMathews on Dec 1, 2011 8:29 PM PST up reply actions
It depends
If you’re up by 30, still pressing and shooting 3s, you’re running up the score. If the defense isn’t stopping good looks around the basket, it’s on them.
18 mins
few’s master plan is to allocate 18 mins to bell??? that why bell spurned bcs schools, to play behind “sleepy” carter? pangos/bell/edi/harris/sacre!!!!!!! stop the anxiety. i would rather lose a game due to bell and pangos’ inexperience that pad few’s won lost record with “safer” players like carter and hart…..as for the euros, they’re toast……
by jazzdelmar on Dec 1, 2011 2:55 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
He's a frosh on a team that returned everyone but Gray. Give him time to get a feel, he'll get more mins.
And either you’re lying or very, very dumb to say you’d rather lose with freshman than win with vets.
if it means those freshman are better for it come March, who cares if we lose now.
I care much more about how good our team is come March, then what our regular season record is. I’d rather get a bad seed but be really good, then have a good seed and just be good.
19, 20, & 20
point wins the last 3 games. This is a problem I’m happy to have. I believe the team is developing quicker than most of us thought it would/could. The game is basketball and that means the other team will always put on a run. You will always miss shots. You will get burned on defense. You will make unforced turnovers. That’s why we say limit turnovers. Get high quality shot attempts, etc. There is no perfection just do it gooder!
Wanting 30 point wins instead of 20 is a sign of good things. Wanting more minutes for a particular guy is usually aggravating but this year, with this team, it’s more like an embarrassment of riches. Inside/outside, veteran/youth, offense/defense, starters/bench, this team seems so very well balanced that I imagine even a junior could be redshirted.
Me thinks I will sit back and enjoy the season.
"Be smooth, like me!"
maybe was meant to be exaggeration....
but GU T/O per game at 12.8 is 85th in the nation. Worst is Townson at 23.7 a game.
anyway…they do need to take better care of the ball….especially MC and Harris.
I totally agree that going fwd they will need better point production from MC and Dower. I think that Bell can get his points, despite the offense run by coach Few.
Really looking fwd to this streach as the chemistry on the team as well as effort really seems to be there…fun to watch!
If you don't like my fire then don't come around...
I was going to post this.
In addition to 12.8 TO/game being a far cry from “worst in the country,” the Zags also have a STL/TO ratio of 0.67, which is tied for 36th in the country. The two biggest TO offenders on the team are Carter (2.6/game this year vs. 1.1/game last year) and Harris (2.0/game this year vs. 1.8/game last year), and Carter at least should hopefully revert to the ball control effectiveness he had last year. After those two come the frosh guards (Bell: 1.8/game, Pangos: 1.4/game), and hopefully they’ll get over their freshman jitters enough to decrease their turnovers while earning more playing time.
If we route Illinois, Michigan State, Butler, Zona, and Xavier
Then we will probably have several posters saying how lousy each team turned out to be.
I am going to step out on a limb, and define what i believe will be success, for the next 5 games…
1. Ill,,, 2. Michigan State.. 3. Butler 4. Zona 5. Oral
Our next 5 teams, in whatever order.
A. 4-5 wins, raging success, put us in top ten
B. 2-3 wins, ho hum, we MIGHT be good, but we need tons of work.
C.. 1 or less, this team has issues, may not make tourney..
I agree with this
Except I think the only way we crack top 10 is with 5 wins…not that rankings matter too much anyways.
it depends on other teams losses more then our wins
by DanielwMathews on Dec 1, 2011 8:03 PM PST up reply actions
I know our schedule hasn't been like years past, but.....
At this time last year we were 2-3, the streak was seemingly coming to an end, and the at large chance was dwindling.
The key is we continue taking care of business and show up with 3 or 4 losses come Selection Sunday. That way we can be placed in Portland and good things will happen. Just like 2009.
by DKZagBlazer on Dec 1, 2011 8:02 PM PST via mobile reply actions
I am happy with what I have seen so far
but not happy as can be.
As several have already commented, there is room for improvement on both ends of the court. That being said (again), I will be watching for the offense to tighten up (still too sloppy for my liking but just my opinion). I am enjoying (as I hope the rest of the Zag Nation is) this team developing right in front of our eyes. It can and will only get better from here. Watch out WCC – here come the Bulldogs of Gonzaga again!
Guy Landry, Guy Landry, and Guy Landry
I firmly believe this is the guy who will take harts place against Oral Roberts, from what i understand he is a defensive stud who can score better then Hart, if they are 8-0 when they play Oral Roberts, look out they just might run the table.
7 or 8?
Is Landry suspended for 7 or 8 games. Just trying to figure out when he is coming back.
Big month
This month has everything to do with NCAA seeding if we take care of business in the WCC.
1. Huge road test on national TV at Illinois. All I want is a good effort. If Illinois plays well and beats us in front of a packed house, that’s fine.
2. Michigan State-most storied program to ever visit the Kennel, and the first Big Ten team to visit. MSU will come into this game with 2 losses: the Carrier Classic vs North Carolina (12 points) and against Duke (6 points). MSU could still be a top 4 seed in March, so just beating them would be awesome, but beating them by double digits could help us a lot on Selection Sunday.
3. Oral Roberts-A game we better win, perhaps the debut of Guy Landry?
4. Arizona-A game we can afford to lose, especially if we beat Illinois or Xavier. From what we have seen from Arizona, we should win, and it would be nice to go 2-0 against the PAC 12(again).
5. Butler-The potential downer game with students out of town. This game is as important as any this month because Butler could be an RPI killer.
6. Air Force-Please don’t lose. Please.
7. Portland-First conference game, as if we needed any more meaningful games, and…
8. Xavier-A great, well-timed test for our rookie guards as they will have to stop Tu Holloway, who might be the best guard in the NCAA. X is soft enough inside to where we should pull out a huge road win if we can keep Holloway from catching fire NBA JAM style.
I think we win all of them except for maybe this Saturday in Champaign.
Welcome to the Sound Pound...
It's going to be an awesome month
Illinois is our first road game of the year. It will be interesting to see how the young studs handle playing on the road in a packed house against an undefeated team. There’s many tests, and oh how far our program has come. We’re playing Michigan St at home? That’s an awesome feat. If we lose any two of these games then we’re probably looking at a 3 seed at the best. But I certainly hope Tu Holloway doesn’t catch fire NBA Jam style, that would be a nightmare.
confirmation bias
If you think they give up to many threes, they do. If you think they can’t play defense, they don’t. You watch a few minutes of a Tennessee game and wonder why they don’t play full court all the time. Or watch a few minutes of a UC game and wonder why they don’t have the athletes to dunk on every position. You have a confirmation bias, so shut up and live with the team on the court.
come on man
You should be able to get a point across without telling people to shut up. But you’re not even making a detailed argument for your case.
by 1AndDone on Dec 2, 2011 1:03 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Or
if every year in the tournament teams kill them from 3, something is amiss.
tipping the scales
Last couple of games, I think they have vastly improved the 3-pt defense. I will take one or two open shots over fouling a 3-pt shooter. The good news is that this team is capable of MAKING LOTS of 3 pt shots, unlike some previous years. As long as they come out ahead in terms of 3-pt shots made vs those made by the other team, it seems like a good trade. And a win is a win, no matter how pretty or ugly. GO ZAGS!
Definitely
My favorite part of the game was the defense, or more specifically, the good defense. That and Sacre’s jump hooks.
Have a great Friday!
I had no idea that saying Gonzaga gives up far too many quality three point opportunities and turns the ball over too much meant that I have confirmation bias. I just thought it was common sense.
I urge you to read up on confirmation bias a bit before you put me on the therapist couch. I’m not spewing non-sequitors and citing bunk sources to back up my preconceived notions which I am too stubborn to give up. I’m actually giving the plainest, black and white facts I can about this team from the five games they have played so far. Trust me, I would be more than happy to no longer believe that Gonzaga plays awful perimeter defense but from watching the games, I know that there is still a ton of work to be done.
Just as an FYI, the point of this site is for fans to offer opinions on the state of the team. “Shutting up” is probably not going to happen. Also, I think we are all better than telling eachother to shut up so please refrain from using such phrases as it is a violation of our rules and regs.
Here is a link to our rules and regs: http://www.slipperstillfits.com/pages/community-etiquette-2
The Slipper Still Fits - SB Nation's home for the Gonzaga Bulldogs!
WIth that said
I think a few of our consistent posters transitions their posts too often with, “with that said”
WITH THAT SAID, maybe we can shake up our writing style so its not so predictable?
Thanks. I do appreciate the content, just a tip from English 101. I guess I’m just being a dick.
I do enjoy reading everyone’s posts and share the passion we all have for the Bulldogs. Keep up the good work!
GO ZAGS!
Season starts tomorrow
I definitely agree with the feelings that Zach expressed. While we are 5-0 I don’t really feel like our season starts until we play Illinois tomorrow. Trust me I am not overlooking these wins at all. In fact hopefully starting 5-0 says something about what this team could be. Almost every year in our non-conference schedule we see games & check them off as wins only later to try and figure out why we lost or how we dropped a game to that team.
So far we have done what we were supposed to. We’ve beaten 5 teams that we are much better than (ND would’ve been much bigger w/Abro playing). While I am happy/relieved I’m looking forward to this month’s games.
- Im looking forward to seeing if Elias will bring it for a whole game rather than 5 minute spurts. As stated with our PG’s by someone yesterday will he self-motivate? He can be a good NBA player, but it won’t happen if he is non-existent for 1/2 of the game. He needs to go out hard with the intensity we say 2 years ago and that we’ve seen glimpses of last year and this year.
-I’m looking forward to seeing if Carter will get back to being the player we saw at the end of last season. He looks lost and hesitant this year not to mention hasn’t shot worth a darn. I want the smooth shooting guy who could glide down the lane for a layup. If he continues this way I think few will continue to play GBJ in his minutes.
-Finally, I’m looking forward to seeing Pangos & GBJ continue to flourish. The great thing about Pangos is that he doesn’t need to score 32 a game to have a huge impact on the game. He is such a good passer and controls the court and team so well. His 32 didn’t come on chucking up 3’s, each was wide open and within the flow of the game. He is really just an upgraded Stockton in that he’s quicker & has some more size. As for GBJ he is that athletic-bouncy type top 50 players that Gonzaga really hasn’t been able to consistently recruit. While it is obvious he is a freshman at times he has abilities and gifts that can’t be taught and I look forward to seeing him succeed against teams like Illinois, MSU, & Xavier.
While many of my thoughts are similar to Zach’s’ I still wanted to post. I know I am not the best writer so hopefully that doesn’t detract from enjoying my post.
Go Zags!
With that said,
I don’t think your writing was poor at all. But I’m not the pickiest person here…
Team Turnovers are not the worst in the Country as Zach says
we average 12.8 Turnovers per game which is tied for 76th lowest TOPG in the country. Out of 345 teams, that is nowhere close to worst in the country- actually pretty good. Xavier, for example, is worse with 13.8 TOPG I don’t know where you get your stats Zach
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/statistics/team/_/stat/assists/sort/avgTurnovers/count/41
It depends
on one’s definition of “close”. Either way, the turnovers are too high.
townson has almost 24 a game
that is double what GU has…that is not “close” under any definition.
If you don't like my fire then don't come around...
Agreed
You also need to take into account that we play up-tempo compared to the"low-turnover" teams in the country. For instance, we have 72 shots/trips to the line per game at the moment. The lowest turnover team in the country, Wisconsin, only has 61. Tempo has a lot to do with this stat.
Just watching this team, we seem to be better about not turning the ball over than we have been the past two years. I think a lot of that has to do with the point guard play being greatly improved over the last two years… Goodson could be a little erratic to say the least.
We are turning it over
in the half court set…not on the fast break. mostly in feeding the post and the post not hanging onto the ball.
If you don't like my fire then don't come around...
Woops
Maybe I do have confirmation bias ;)
The Slipper Still Fits - SB Nation's home for the Gonzaga Bulldogs!
by Zach Bell on Dec 2, 2011 11:33 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Depth,Depth,Depth
Spangler has been good, imagine what happens when Landry is available…i’ve seen some of the other WCC teams in action, they look like boys …
Good points!
I’ll withhold comments until GU actually plays quaity teams at full strength, except for one. Huge mistake playing Spangler. Especially with Guy coming soon. An absolute waste of his Freshman year, IMO. However, as Coach Few says……“Redshirting is the final decsion of the recruit.” 6-9 minutes a game this year would have increased to 15-18 minutes next year as a Redshirt Freshman, bigger stronger smarter more confident.
Hoping for a good showing at Illinois.
Agreed!
Spangler has not impressed me in the limited time he’s been able to play. & He will be struggling to find minutes if any in many games this month. He looks like he badly needs time to mature & bulk up. Maybe seeing too many pictures of him playing in high school (he was in a smaller league) made me imagine him as a much bigger guy. He will only get better practicing with Rob & Sam but with such limited playing time he could’ve saved a year & RS
Not sure who you're watching
but Spangler is already pretty huge, at least in terms of upper body. He seems a bit nervous, but that is to be expected. I’ve been happy with what I’ve seen from him, considering that he isn’t a key player this year and has time to grow.
Yeah
especially with Hart logging minutes at the 4 in multiple games. Sprangler looks like he needs a lot of work. but then again Dower is the only other backup(not counting Hart) and injuries do happen.
First post--nice to join the land of the rabid
The keys to December and for the rest of the year, IMO, are:
Offensive options—we have more than we’ve had in the past couple of years. It seemed our threats were from the perimeter with Matt and Stephen. Everyone knew our frontline was going to be formatable this year, the question was with our backcourt. We’ve answered some of those questions with our freshmen guards. Although Kevin has been a pleasent surprise, I think GB is going to settle in and Few knows he needs more minutes. It wouldn’t surprise me if we had a different leading scorer every game.
Defensive consistency—does it seem we’re playing with more defensive intensity? We’ve always been more of a “help” or “team” defensive, while our guards kept getting beat off the dribble with penetration. It looks to me like everyone is playing a lot better on the ball and “in your face” defense. If we can maintain this intensity, we’ll go far in March.
These 5 games have been enlightening. I think everyone can see the potential. They’ve looked good against 2nd tier teams, but most of December is against some big boys. I think we’ll be undefeted going in to Xavier, with the winner of that game garnering a top 4 seed in March.
"Average is as Average does"
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