Criticism-free Mad Libs
by Hoft on Nov 16, 2011 10:30 AM PST
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PrintThe season is still mighty young, but already I've been noticing in recent comment threads a tired old mantra: "How dare you criticize Mark Few / Mike Hart / any Gonzaga player?? You have no right to attack them! You know nothing! Be grateful for what you have!" I find this one of the more insidious arguments around, as it both puts fallible humans on a sacred pedestal, and also attempts to silence any dissent or analysis.
But rather than rehashing this debate ad infinitum, I thought I'd present an alternative. It occurs to me that, if you find criticism of Gonzaga Men's Basketball offensive, then perhaps a website devoted to analysis, opinions and commentary on Gonzaga Men's Basketball might not be an ideal place for you. And yet, you still want and need that dose of Zaggery. Where can one turn? Where find all the glory, none of the negativity? I offer you the following paragraph for future usage, which can easily be user-modified to suit the vicissitudes of each game:
"Tonight, the Zags played [opponent], and [won/lost] by a final score of [xx-xx]. It was a hard-fought game, and our players left everything they had out on the floor. They sure are hardworking, nice young men. Coach Few coached a hell of a game, and did everything in his power to win. We are so lucky to have him! Besides, I am in no position to criticize him, since I am not Head Coach of Gonzaga Men's Basketball. True, it's too bad we coughed up [a/some/many] big lead[s], and got torched from the perimeter. But [we pulled out a win, and that's all that matters / that's the way the ball bounces sometimes.] This team truly is what it is. And while we haven't been to the Elite Eight since the Clinton Administration, we've won [11 straight] WCC titles. Those banners do not grow on trees. Count them! Eleven! And if you're still not satisfied, I [think you're a bad fan / think you should shut your mouth / have eleven WCC banners for you to shove in your mouth\elsewhere / insert angry ad hominem here]. We are so blessed. Zag up!"
Is there anything I missed?
This post does not reflect the views of the blog authors or SB Nation.
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"This team truly is what it is."
No truer words have ever been spoken.
This is simply outstanding
I’d also add something along the lines of “No mid-major program has accomplished what Gonzaga has under Mark Few. We are truly the gold standard of non-BCS basketball programs even though that Butler schools has had few little runs based on luck and good matchups!”
The Slipper Still Fits - SB Nation's home for the Gonzaga Bulldogs!
maybe the best post I have read on this site!
You did leave out the entire recruiting debate, we should be happy that we get [good/ talented/ non-paraplegic] players at all given the [city, the school size/ the league…blah blah]
[awesome/grand/ tremendous] post!
If you don't like my fire then don't come around...
I especially like the inference that backing Few, and liking his moves, is paramount to "putting him on a sacred pedestal"
nothing grandiose, or over the top there….Geez, I wonder if we are going to find out about a sexual scandal he did nothing about soon?
Nice comparison, real “thought provoking” and intellectual.
Backing/liking Few ain't the same thing as getting angry when someone dares to question him,
which is what gets under my skin. That, and 3 point barrages.
Honestly, the tone of the post, to me is "Those of us who REALLY understand basketball are trying to critique here,
and if you don’t agree, it can’t be that you have a valid thought, you must worship Few".
The overall tone of this site is FAR from Few worship…you have a few people, who I honestly believe think THEY know more basketball than, and could do a much better job than Few (entitled to your opinion)…. a few people who really do believe in Few, no matter what, and then…
My guess is over 90 percent on this site like and appreciate Few, but critique him when they see fit (I myself believe last year was his worst)… I think he has earned a tad bit of rope, though, and like the direction this year so far (amazing what good perimeter shooting can do).
yes
the amount of people who worship Few on this site is pretty small. Last year Few appreciation hit rock bottom levels, it was truly pandemonium. I think half of the site was calling for Few’s head. People are always going to irrationally defend players or coaches. As I probably irrationally defend Mike Hart, but since him and Marquise carter are my favorite players I find it hard to root against them, or for them to be replaced in the rotation.
Now we just need a "criticism-only" mad libs
It’s easy (and fun!) to ridicule extremes on both sides. Doesn’t mean that any particular posters actually embody these caricatures.
by Nadingo on Nov 17, 2011 7:45 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
What is the goal of the program?
Each of us has expectations for the program. they are not the same for all of us. Some, myself included, want to see a final four. Others may be satisfied with conference championships and 20 win seasons. Still others may focus on the character of the players and coaches and things like graduation rates. Sometimes I even question Mark Few’s goal for the program and I don’t mean this disparagingly. Possibly this difference in expectations is at the root of some of the bickering on the blog site. Personally I get frustrated with the incessant chatter around our marginal players. I’d rather discuss X’s and O’s and the things that we need to do to make the jump to an elite squad.
Maybe we all need to realize that we are coming into the discussion with different perspectives. One thing I am going to do going forward is to latch onto ideas that I find interesting and respond to them, hopefully enhancing the discussion, and ignore those that I don’t.
Must be heard:
Can someone please post this on GUBoards?
Opinions
as long as people aren’t being vulgar, then I don’t mind if somebody wants to crown Mark Few the next John Wooden. It wouldn’t bother me if somebody said Demetri Goodson is a better 3 point shooter than Kevin Pangos. Most people understand logical arguments and there will always be other people who choose to have beliefs despite overwhelming contradictory evidence.
It’s pretty impossible to sculpt discourse in which everybody is tolerant of one another’s opinion. But from my experiences here, once a member becomes part of the Slipper Still Fits community then intolerance usually isn’t an issue. Usually the people that are disrespectful are new users that haven’t gotten to know everybody else.
I think at one point or another we’ve all been pissed off at Mark Few. I remember at one point last year I mentioned that I could coach the Zags to a WCC title. A number of users were highly critical of my comment but I just felt like I needed to pop off. I’m content with Mark Few. Would I like him to be less aloof? Definitely. Would I like him to say I fucked up for once? Of course. Would I like him to be less uptight? That goes without saying.
My takeaway
It’s basketball. Don’t take yourself too seriously.
The Slipper Still Fits - SB Nation's home for the Gonzaga Bulldogs!
by Zach Bell on Nov 17, 2011 8:05 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
This fanpost really SKEEVES me out!!
I admit, this fanpost is very creative in it’s construction but COME ON…..I will be as homeristic as I want and I do not need any negative nelly spinning a way for “him” to tell “me” how to proceed with my homerism, just because he is tired of all of it.
OK, I am just kidding. Great post!….. Not skeeved.
*One thing though….And I am being serious here….My only concern is that this post is definatley not going to get TSSFs any closer to getting “credentialled.” Of course, I was thinking the very same thing when the managers of this very site left the “Few in the Penn State lockeroom” comment up. If Mark Few was to read, or hear about that?…EGAADS!
Imagine how much better this site would be IF it was credentialled and TSSFs had access to the coaches, players, et all… just like other media outlets do.
Just a thought…………..
Final 4 or Bust!!~
by gaz-tastic on Nov 17, 2011 6:47 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Press credentials?
I doubt it, though its a nice hope. At least then I’d be able to pressure somebody into asking the questions I want asked.
I would LOVE to walk right into the coaches office and ask some questions we both probably want answered...
but who the frick am I? Nobody. So I realize that I cannot make it happen.
So until this site is credentialed, if ever, we don’t get answers. Bummer.
Final 4 or Bust!!~
If we let the faint hope of press credentials motivate us to self-censor...
then the terrorists have already won!
Seriously, there are valid reasons for restricting what people say, but worrying about offending those in power shouldn’t be one of them, in my opinion.
I care more about harsh criticism of the players than saying anything bad about Few — he’s a grown man in a public position where a thick skin is part of the job description. They’re just kids.
just kids...
they are old enought to fight and die for our country..but god forbid a stranger on a blog say something harsh about them or their lack of abilities….last time I checked…being 18+ makes you an adult.
not directed at you specifically…. but just getting tired of the whole "they are just kids, don’t be mean to them, what color is your parachute…mantra.
If you don't like my fire then don't come around...
Nadingo...I am the last person who enjoys "self-censor" but
If the managers of this site could somehow gain favor, that helped them get on Fews good side just enough to get a foot in the door, maybe the trade off would be worth all of the direct contact that could be gained.
Final 4 or Bust!!~
Credentials? Really?
Look at what these guys have done without “Press Credentials.” They are hardly necessary in today’s world.
by FrayLo on Nov 18, 2011 10:20 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not.
“these guys”, whomever they might be, if credentialed could do much more.
The insight that could be gained with the ability to be at practices, interview coaches, players and even the GodFEWfather himself would be much, much more than what we currently are getting.
Do you really feel what we garner in here is enough? The old saying, “to each his own” comes to mind. As for me, I wish for more.
People seemed to get pretty excited about the possibility of Zach sneaking into the Pepsi Center to get out info from the secret scrim vs Texas…..It would be nice to not have to be sneaking around. Maybe not the best example because it was supposed to be secret to everyone, even reporters, but I think you understand what I am saying.
Final 4 or Bust!!~
Even if TSSF had credentials...
It wouldn’t mean MF would automatically answer the “tough questions.” Take a look at that video posted in one of the FanShots on this page, where Few condescendingly dismisses most of the media questions, and the rest of the answers are essentially non-answers. Access sounds sexy to everyone but it doesn’t mean you get more info. The Spokesman Review guys have access and Meehan’s articles are pretty shitty, practically regurgitated press releases mixed with random quotes from players and coaches, none of which is particularly insightful.
As far as the scrimmages go, supposedly no media is allowed in those things, so I’m not sure what that’s gonna buy you.
I’d take well-done analysis and insight into the team over “access.” You don’t need access to see what happens in games and understand how personnel moves and in-game strategy affect winning. Look at the work being done at Basketball Prospectus and other College Basketball sites/blogs around the internet.
by FrayLo on Nov 18, 2011 5:31 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree that "tough questions" would not be automatically answered because of creds.
I also agree that good work and analysis can be done w/out creds. But, I also KNOW that we could do so much more with creds.
Player interviews? Tid-bits observed from practices?… No-one can get that stuff w/out credentials.
Final 4 or Bust!!~
"Player interviews? … No-one can get that stuff w/out credentials."
Well, that is, except me….lol
And I took lots of fire for it.
Final 4 or Bust!!~
How about the other side??
Mr X (player or coach…you pick) has his privates nailed to the wall for a screw up, real or percieved. 2nd guessing, hindsight, he shoulda’, it was a bad ……
Following weeks Mr X does exceptionally well (same situation)….he’s lauded, praised, glorified…..
Yes, he read the comments on the first posts… Did you ever see I’m sorry for posting that, I WAS wrong….those weren’t my nails that were used but I did loan my hammer??
by Sage on Nov 18, 2011 12:44 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Blowing hot and cold
is a common phenomenon on this blog.
I have always seen Basketball as a continual building process. Expectations are for the end of the season. Anything good that happens early in the season is just an added bonus.
IMO, it is impossible to derive any useful conclusions on the basis of one game or even a few games. You have to look at the entire package (player development, practice, injury, court performance, recruiting, coaching, fan base, facilities, opposition, . . . and I could go on) over an extended period of time to comment intelligently.
Case in point is Meech. If you can go back and look at the archives at the start of his Sophmore season, you will see that Meech could do no wrong and would lead us to the promised land (not my position BTW), then the posters became divided with some defending his presence on the floor based on defense (well other things too), but when the team hit 4-5 the love affair was over and his biggest supporters turned on him.
There were a couple brave souls during that time that questioned Meech’s passing and scoring ability — not based on a game or two but a body of work. There was at least one person (yours truly) that predicted Stocks would have an opportunity to break through because of Meech’s poor passing ability — well that and I know a bit about Stocks and his own abilities going back to his AAU days.
For too many, it’s all about what have you done for me lately — too often the analysis fails to do more than look at the last two or three games. I find this type of analysis shallow, often too obvious, disinteresting, and often hurtful to the individual involved.
Sorry if I get short with some of you when this gets out of hand. You are entitled to your opinions. I’d just like to see you back up your ‘opinions’ with a bit more substance than I have been seeing from some individuals.
mjc
Case in point is Meech. If you can go back and look at the archives at the start of his Sophmore season, you will see that Meech could do no wrong and would lead us to the promised land
I took you up on this and found nothing of the sort. The VAST majority of comments were cautiously optimistic at best….the remaining were more on the side of doubtful….As for me, I always said the same thing, he is limited in offense and lacks BB IQ, however I believed he would make that jump we hoped for from his Soph to Junior year…he did not.
Also…i have to disagree that it is impossible to derive useful conclusions from one or a few games when you have a knowledge base from which to pull…such as watching Mark Few lead teams year after year….this exposes trends you can identify easily within a single game. This would be much like telling a doctor… sorry your diagnosis is not valid because this is the first case you have seen this year, regardless of the vast amount identical or similar cases you have seen in years past.
IMO when you see a trend that has been present for several games, season or even years and then you see that same trend shown in the first or even tenth game…or you see a noticable change in what has been an established trend, you have a legit reason to comment on such….negative or positive.
With that said…there are of course some peeps who have knee jerk reactions…that is going to happen…I get that….
If you don't like my fire then don't come around...
by mattydog73 on Nov 22, 2011 3:51 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I like your fire, MD73,
That was a tasty articulation of the issue.
You can't be serious...
“I find this one of the more insidious arguments around, as it both puts fallible humans on a sacred pedestal, and also attempts to silence any dissent or analysis.”.
This conclusion could easily be drawn about your fan post.
But, my conclusion is that your whole assertion is pretty silly on an opinion site. Me thinks you’re spending too much time in mom & dad’s basement and need a little fresh air.
For my part, I’ll try to keep my comments more critical. Wouldn’t want to contribute to the insidiousness!
His assertion is valid...
as he is taking issue with those who insist the negative comments / opinions regarding GU, Mark Few, his lack of creativity, his inability to make game time decisions and so on, have no merit and those with such opinions should just “shut it” “be happy with what we have” etc.
He is not taking issue with those who are just positive in general rather those peeps who “go off” on those of us who dare question any facet of the program. When these certain peeps do such, they are not expressing their opinion rather they are trying to suppress the opinion of others. This is what he was trying to say.
If you don't like my fire then don't come around...
This argument is essentially...
On playground…
Boy #1, “Shut up!”
Boy #2, “No, You shut up!”
Boy #1, “No, You shut up!”
Boy #2, “My dad is bigger than your dad!”
Boy #1, “Is not!”
Boy #2, “Is too!” ……………………………………………
Insidious? No. Silly? Yes. IMHO.
But you boys have a good time. I’m going back out to the playground. :)
by Stonesthrower on Nov 29, 2011 8:08 AM PST up reply actions
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