It Has To Be Better Than Last Year, Right?: Zags Host Wazzu
by Max Mandel on Nov 14, 2011 7:01 AM PST
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While there are few things that I am 100% sure about, one thing that I am willing to guarantee is that Gonzaga will not lose by 21 points to Washington St. this year. For those of you who have done everything humanly possible to forget about that dark day last season, I apologize profusely for even mentioning one of the most embarrassing games I have witnessed as a Gonzaga fan. With that said, beyond my initial prediction, I really have no feel for what we will see from either team tomorrow night in the opening game of ESPN's Tip-Off Marathon.
I don't want to provide another recap of the season-opener against EWU, as Zach did an awesome job describing that "interesting" performance. However, if Gonzaga continues to struggle so mightily defending the perimeter, this will be a long season. Unfortunately, I think that part of the issue is that the players most suited to play defense on the perimeter, were in fact spending much of the game on the bench.
In order to play great defense, an individual must have great instincts and great lateral quickness. You can be an adequate defender with either of those attributes, but to be a great defender you must possess both. My reason for this explanation is because I believe that the lack of players who have both attributes is what has plagued Gonzaga's perimeter defense. While the Mike Hart issue has been beaten to death, anyone who believes that he is a great defender is not watching the game. I applaud Hart for his hustle and grittiness on the court. However, his defensive instincts allowed numerous open looks for EWU.
One particular play that is glaring in my mind was when Hart had a choice to pick up an open EWU player that had the ball on the wing at the three-point line, or stay with his man in the corner. If there is one thing I learned from being around basketball, it's that the only player on the court that can score is the one with the basketball. This may seem like a simple idea, but watching Hart choose to stay with his man, as opposed to guarding the guy with the ball on the three-point line, made me realize that despite his hustle and strength, Hart doesn't possess the instincts to be a great defensive player. I'm sure many of you can guess the result of the play, but for those who can't, it was an EWU player draining the open shot. My hope for this season is that when Guy Landry-Edi returns from suspension, and as GBJ gets more comfortable, those two can emerge as guys who can limit open looks on the perimeter.
Washington St. is a team that has a potentially explosive backcourt, but lacks the frontline to really compete in the Pac-12 this season. The combination of Reggie Moore and Faisal Aden is pretty darn impressive, although both guys are coming off injuries that have limited them in the preseason. Freshman guard DaVonte Lacy will also see a lot of minutes, as the Cougars hope to use a committee of guards to replace the departed Klay Thompson.
Unfortunately for WSU, it doesn't have anyone who can replicate the type of impact that DeAngelo Casto. Junior C Brock Motum will be the primary frontcourt option for the Cougs, but he will face a tall task trying to slow down Robert Sacre and Sam Dower.
My hope and expectation is that we will see GBJ grow more comfortable now that he has hopefully taken care of some of the jitters that were to be expected in his first regular season game. I was impressed with how composed Kevin Pangos was in his debut, and it seems that it is just a matter of time before he is the starting PG. Pangos is a strong decision-maker and seems to have the ability to hit shots from the perimeter. I will be curious to see how he handles a guy like Moore on both ends of the court, as I don't think he has faced anyone with that kind of athleticism and strength.
This game will ultimately come down to whether or not the Gonzaga guards can contain the Wazzu backcourt. After the performance against EWU, my confidence isn't extraordinarily high that they can. However, I do think that the Zags can utilize the size and skill advantage they have on the frontline, highlighted by the impressive Elias Harris, to wear down WSU. Although this might surprise some people, my gut says that we see a much better performance from Gonzaga, and that the Zags pick up a 77-68 win.
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I tend to agree...
The fact that the Zags experienced the game against EWU makes me hope that the Zags see the upcoming matchup as potentially playing out very similar if they don’t change something. I will be very interested in:
1. Who starts at the 3
2. How GBJ responds after getting some jitters out in the last game
3. 3 point defense
4. Are we going to stick with such a bogus 8 man rotation???
Go ZAGS!
Eager
I am very curious how tonight will play out, hopefully some of the questions about the rotation will be answered tonight…I am not going to make any predictions because it seems to always backfire when I do…
I do know if we dont guard the 3 better this game, we will lose to WSU w/out question, and they do have a number of players, not just guards that can light it up…
There froncourt to me is a bit underated as well so I hope we dont take that lightly, we need to get there bigs in foul trouble early.
Wow- 85-62 DMatthews…geesh, I hope your right.
JSH
Who has the ball matters too
In response to Max’s comment about Hart’s D, do you remember who made the shot? Because I remember one particular play that sounds like what you were describing, but the guy with the ball was not one of the big EWU shooters, while the guy Hart was guarding (if I remember correctly) was. So if Hart has to choose between giving an open look to an okay shooter vs. allowing a pass and an open look to a lights-out shooter, what’s he supposed to do?
Again, I don’t know if this was the case in the play you describe, but I don’t know if it’s fair to cite this as proof of Hart’s poor instincts.
of course it is fair...
stopping the guy with the ball is fundamental.
If you don't like my fire then don't come around...
by mattydog73 on Nov 14, 2011 9:08 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Come to think of it, maybe that's what we need to do- don't rotate over.
There is a defensive strategy in which there is not an emphasis on helpside or sliding over to help against penetration. The offside defender stays with his man, thereby allowing the penetration and not leaving their man open for the J. Come to think of it, maybe this style could be employed because everyone agrees that covering spot up shooters after penetration and kick-out is our weakness. We also have bigs that can pick up the penetration around the basket- Rob and Elias. Also, surprisingly the penetrating player doesn’t always know what to do with the ball when they find themselves inside and the passing angles are blocked. A common time to use this D is at the end of a game when only a 3 can beat you or tie you. You allow the penetration and stay spotted up on the shooters. We could lay for steals with our length and shot block around the basket. Then get the ball and run. This could also force Rob and Elias to play D and give more of a role for Spangler.
We are all so versed in Bobby Knight/ Mike K style D that we sometimes forget that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
I rewatched the first 10 minutes of second half...Chiverton? was on fire, and there were shots he hit over Hart he couldn't have been better defensed on
That said, the truest things Few said were that WSU would be a similar challenge. We better be better!
WSU lacks size, but I remember guys like Lodwick shoving us all around the paint last year,, and Reggie Moore sometimes look Iversonesque with his speed and explosions to hoop…Leave Faisal alone around perimeter, you are dead. Remember thinking Lacy was the most athletic player on court in last years high school state final..
This will be a litmus test, can we learn from a game a few days ago, and handle a scrappy, physical, perimeter oriented team? This time it is a mid to possible high level D1 calibur team,, let’s see some adjustments, and improved execution!
by mattzag72 on Nov 14, 2011 9:04 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
From Inside Tent City
From what I heard hanging around the vagabonds in Tent City last night, there’s VERY cautious optimism. It’s common knowledge that we needed the EWU game to get the kinks out, but here are some of the main talking points hovering around camp as we approach 9pm:
1. Pangos should be starting at the point, just make the switch now so he can adjust quicker.
2. Rob can afford to be, and should be, a real bruiser tonight. Elias isn’t the vocal leader type, and Rob will step into the role. Be the enforcer.
3. Go with a smaller, quicker lineup (Quise at the 3) if it means we can guard the perimeter more effectively. ANYTHING to guard the perimeter.
4. DO NOT START HART. We love him (badumchaaaa), but not that much.
"Gonzaga knows how to party...Jesu-WHAT!"
Also from Inside Tent City (#40 represent)
Rob and Elias will put up numbers tonight. Wazzu has no frontcourt.
Pangos is a fan favorite already, this dude deserves serious minutes, he is really confident with the ball and deserves to get some serious PT. I honestly can’t wait to see Gy on the court, the 3 that we desperately need. GU wins tonight with a good game from someone other than Elias and Rob. Looking for GBJ to make an impact tonight on either side of the court.
ZAGUP.
Steps baaaaack! OOOOH at the buzzer! Young! Zeke!
From what I remember
Hart chose to stick with the better shooter in the corner. Of course Hart gets the blame for this play as well, that’s not a surprise. Not anyone else for a blown defensive assignment. Of course what doesn’t get any mention is the run that Eastern Washington went on at the end of the 2nd half, the one with Hart on the bench, where we gave up a barrage of 3 pointers that let Eastern Washington back in the game.
Chiverton also missed 10 of his last 11 shots, and his final 7 of the game.
The singular focus on blaming Hart is definitely starting to get old.
I thought Hart did well on defense
And I disagree with Max’s opinion that the best perimeter defenders were sitting on the bench at the time. I don’t recall whom on the bench has proven to be a lock down perimeter defender. I also have the same recollection as 1AndDone regarding the cited defensive play – tough decision, but Hart stayed with the hot hand. The announcers even agreed he made the right decision.
In wading through all of the posts, the thread I find most interesting relates to how you buld up the players you need for the second half of the season. The minutes given to Stockton and Carter in the earlier part of last season prompted many comments about how they should never come off the bench, and how they were not D1 players, but they were critical in finishing off the season. So far this year Bell seems to be struggling terribly, but I expect he will continue to see minutes. Curious to see whom else the coaching staff thinks is worth the investment.
by Osco on Nov 14, 2011 10:20 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Game time ??
I’m confused. Gozags.com and slipper fits say the game is tonight, but every major sports network/news site such as ESPN, Foxsports, SI, and Yahoosports say that its tomorrow night. Did it get changed to tonight?
12ET
it is at 12ET which is technically Tuesday on the East Coast, but is Monday on the West Coast. I was confused too so you’re not the only one! haha
Very worried Coug Fan here
I don’t think Gonzaga will have much trouble here. To start I feel GU has the better team, and then we have 3 potential starters who may miss the game with injuries (not suspensions). No way to know who would be starting all 3 set out the exhibition game. We were just above a .500 team last season, and had 2 guys leave early for the pros. The game is in Spokane, and WSU does not have the bigs to compete with GU. Sacre and company can be aggressive and afford to play physical.
EWU looked like a team that wanted to win bad and had nothing to lose. GU looked like maybe they expected to roll, and didn’t have their heads ready for a highly motivated EWU team.
I’m excited to see the Devonte Lacey vs Gary Bell Jr match up. My girlfriend just sent me a pic of the tent city down at GU. It’s cold I pity the students, please tell me they have heaters.
Sometimes I act irrationally.
If you're referring to Laundry...
we all know the NCAA’s rules are overkill
I was referring to WSU and last season's marijuana related suspensions.
As for Laundry, I usually disagree with the NCAA. 5 or 6 years ago we got a German kid (Fabian Boeke) and they made him sit out a season for whatever benefits he got as a high schooler. When it comes to the NCAA it’s a crap shoot on what they decide.
Sometimes I act irrationally.
I see...
sometimes I’m suprised Harris didn’t have to sit out for whatever vauge reason the NCAA could come up with.
Sorry, Landry...
I assume I got the spelling from an earlier post.
Sometimes I act irrationally.
You mean it's not his new nickname?
When he commits hard fouls, can we still call him “Dirty Laundry”?
GU will win if
we can contain their 3 pt shooting. That’s all. Our bigs will get their points and hopefully one or two of our guards will have a nice day. But if we play good perimeter D and contest shots, we should win.
That pretty much covers it
You’re 100% right about our bigs – they’ll clean up inside and live at the line like they did Friday. Guards/wings need to grow up real quick and play at least decent perimeter D. I think that’ll always be the X factor this season. Rebounding should be fine, free throws should be very good. All about the perimeter defense. If it shows up, we’ll win a lot of games. Tonight is a chance to show we can do that.
On the red shirt front.
Gonzaga redshirting three
1:02
PM ET
Gonzaga Bulldogs
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According to a report in the The Spokesman-Review on Saturday, Gonzaga is scheduled to redshirt junior forward Kelly Olynyk and freshmen guards Kyle Dranginis and Chris Sarbaugh.
Olynyk has been a player rumored to be a redshirt candidate for months, so that one’s not a surprise. And neither is Sarbaugh, the Bulldogs’ lowest ranked recruit in 2011 and a point guard who would have had to fight for time behind David Stockton, Kevin Pangos, Gary Bell and senior Marquise Carter.
If there’s a surprise, it’s Dranginis, who played well in the Bulldogs’ exhibition and, at 6-foot-5, brings great size, smarts and shooting ability to the backcourt. Having the ability to redshirt a player like Dranginis could help make him quite a contributor in the years ahead.
- Joe Kaiser
Sometimes I act irrationally.
by dslagg on Nov 14, 2011 11:41 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Can we lay off Hart?
I find it despicalbe that so many GU “fans” are all over him. What has he done? Played his ass off? Earned the respect of his coaches? Earned playing time over recruited players? Geez.
If other players like GBJ are not ready, then why is everyone blaming Hart?
And please don’t tell me Hoff or Keita are the answer. They are end of the bench players.
by SanJoseZag on Nov 14, 2011 12:00 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I like all those things you mentioned
But why 30 minutes for him and 0 for hoff and keita(who also has shown to be a good defender)?
We pretty well know Mike isn’t scoring easily, MM at least has the chance to light it up. But he can’t do that with 0 minutes.
Well...
I guess we will never know if MM or MK are the guys cause they don’t get playing time..
I would really like to see MM atleast, to see if he has gotten better defensively because I love his scoring ability, we need a legitimate deep threat!…this will spread the defense.
JSH
Can we lay off Hoff and Keita?
What have they done? Left their home countries for a chance to lend their talents to the Gonzaga basketball team? Sacrificed playing time opportunities they would have had elsewhere?
In all seriousness, I don’t think people are mad at Hart as much as they’re disappointed that Gonzaga recruiting doesn’t seem to be paying dividends. Why did we scout out and recruit these players if they’re not going to contribute to the program? Right now, most of us have no idea whether these guys simply haven’t shown enough improvement to be given a chance or whether there’s some other reason why they’re behind walk-ons on the depth chart. If Hart is given a less prominent role, that means that you have better players earning more time, allowing Hart to come on and provide a spark in limited minutes.
If people are upset at Hart’s minutes, it’s because we’re disappointed that the coaches appear to think he’s a better option than the supposedly high-talent recruits. Did the recruiters misjudge their talent? Did the players fail to develop or to adjust to the system? Did the coaches fail to make use of their talents? We don’t have any answers to those questions, so instead it comes out as “Why Hart?”
You nailed it.
Fans are upset that we are starting 2 walkons over scholarship athletes. It shows a failure in recruiting. It just seems unfair that fans are ripping Hart and Stockton. If anyone should be ripped (and they really shouldn’t), it would be Hoff and Keita for not being as good as advertised.
I think that Bell will eventually get his minutes, as the cream will always rise to the top. Unfortunately, some amateur coaches out there predicited he would dominate as a starter from Day 1. It is clear that Pangos is much more ready for D-1 than Bell.
haha
again MM, and MK have not gotten a legitimate shot…lets not forget there still sophmores.
I dont think fans are directly attacking Hart..he is a great person, its not his fault he’s getting playing time your right. But you say we should rip Hoff and Keita for not being good as advertised…what should we rip? How good they dont look while sitting on the bench…Lets wait until they atleast get a legitimate shot to prove us wrong.
JSH
Maybe no one blames any of the players. Maybe it’s a recognition that not only has our rotation been questionable, but development of highly recruited players has also been fizzling. No one dislikes Hart, just as no one disliked Meech. We all root for these guys to succeed. The problem lies in putting the right people in at the right time, and that falls on Few. And maybe, just maybe, everyone is just sick and tired of seeing the same problems arise year after year.
by BW2020 on Nov 14, 2011 3:23 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Not a failure in recruiting
Have you ever considered the possibility that at this point in time, Hart is better than the M&M boys, or anyone else that Few might play at the 3 position.
Scholarship or walk-on makes no difference. Its what you do on the floor.
If the Scholarship players are not playing better than the walk-on . . . seems to me the fault lies not with the coaching staff, nor does it lie with the walk-on.
mjc
Because Few has been a master of player development lately. Just ask all the transfers.
by BW2020 on Nov 14, 2011 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Yes, a failure in recruiting.
It is a failure in recrutiing when recruited scholarship athletes end up being backups to walkons. It is a failure to properly evaluate talent. It is the fault of the coaching staff to offer kids who are not GU level players.
MM and Keita have been given chances. They haven’t really done much. I still say that one or, more likely both, will transfer at the end of this, if not sooner. I assume that Dranginis will be right in the mix for the 3 next year, along with Landry. With Few’s short rotation, I just don’t see them getting minutes.
ok
Hart is an offense liability and MM is a defense liability… Lets see if MM improoved, if not why the heck would he stay a ZAG…..We need a guy that will spread the defense..heck lets return the favor, I am getting sick of watching teams torch us from 3. If Few dosent play MM against EWU, what makes anyone think he will play him against WSU or WCC teams that play similar styles.
JSH
One of my favorite plays of EWU - GU game - Stockton to Hart
There were a few good plays out there, decent offensive execution, cant help but love the ‘opps to Harris, but one of my favorites was the smooth Stockton to Hart for a layup.
As for comments that people aren’t bashing Hart, etc. I honestly can not understand how some of the comments I’ve read on here about Meech,Stockton and Carter early last year, and Hart last year and this, could in any way be looked at as someone thoughtfully saying – ‘Hmm, there seems to be an issue with our recruitment and player development’.
There are two things the Zags need to do tonight to win.
On offense – Feed the bigs. The Zags have a huge advantage on the front line and would be stupid not to exploit it all game long.
On defense – Man to man, no more of that b.s. 2-3 zone. Over play the three on the perimeter. Make the WSU guards have to shoot long twos or go over Sacre and E in the paint.
It is that simple.
by DaveValleDrinkNight on Nov 14, 2011 2:27 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Seconded, Thirded, and Forthed
If only Mark Few knew what you mean when you say “over play the three on the perimeter”.
Instead we cheat off of the perimeter to help down low when a 6’5 kid posts up Sacre? We are getting torched from 3, so why not drop into a zone that is designed to force outside 3’s?
Few essentially Few plays defense like we are an undersized, under talented team; forcing teams to beat us from three. The problem is, this made sense 10 years ago for the GU program now we have shot blockers and athletes. Few needs to adjust to his own success.
A 20/20 hindsight genius!
with such optimism.
You should really be writing for WAZZU.
I don’t need to repeat the counterpoints made above. They are fairly obvious to someone that knows a bit about the game. I’d love to know a little bit about Mandel’s ‘expertise’.
We should all be glad Max isn’t on the coaching staff.
It’s easy to find fault after the fact. Even if there is no fault to be found. I thought that kind of analysis was confined to political commentators.
Max, there’s nothing wrong with this team. It is what it is. The players are working hard and getting results. Sorry they don’t get the results you would like to see. There’s a lot of inexperience on this team. Whether you know it or not, D is not entirely about “individual athletic ability or ‘skill’”. It’s a team game. If one guy misses an assignment it makes others look bad.
Very Simple Example: when I was playing, if a guard on my team got beat, I would close down the lane and force the opposing guard to make another pass — because if he shot it in the paint, I could usually contest / block the shot. This inevitably lead to another pass being made, and if that pass was handled (and a percentage of these were not handled), the guy I was supposed to be defending would get a bunny. After the game there were always more than a few folks that felt free to comment on how my lack of defensive ability lead to all those easy points — they never commented on the guard on my team that got beat. These ‘experts’ never considered what would have happened if I had stayed at home and let the opposing guard drive the lane unopposed. Trust me, its always worth making them make that extra pass.
Max until you understand the defensive scheme, what constitutes a good execution of that scheme, and who, if anyone, is actually responsible for a blown assignment, just give it a rest. Further if the other team sets a nice screen or executes a pick and roll, give credit where credit is due. There are very few basketball games played these days where the other team doesn’t score off a well executed play — regardless of who might be playing defense.
mjc
Please read my post, just as I have done with your post
Quid- There is something wrong with this team, as it has the same problems that have plagued the program for years. The inability to stop the three-point shot is an issue…it’s not just “what it is”.
I never said defense was about those quotes you made, I in fact said it was about the following:
“great instincts and great lateral quickness”
Just to clarify, I was also referring to playing individual perimeter defense, not team defense in general, which would be a 2000+ word story on its own. Looking at your post, the statement that (and a percentage of those were not handled) sums up my belief on the situation I described with Hart. If Hart had left his man to guard the open person, any number of mistakes could have happened, including a bad pass or the player simply becoming flustered because a guy was playing defense on him. This is why you always focus on the guy with the ball. So essentially based on that paragraph you wrote, you seem to be agreeing with my entire premise on defense.
Also, I personally didn’t see EWU running any great offense in the game, but perhaps I missed it.
Final 4 or bust
by Max Mandel on Nov 14, 2011 4:19 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Nothing wrong with this team?
I’m excited for a NCAA championship then!
I’m not quite sure how your example is different from the original post.
by pc3 on Nov 14, 2011 6:25 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
How about playing a different style of man-to-man defense?
There is a defensive strategy in which there is not an emphasis on helpside or sliding over to help against penetration. The offside defender stays with his man, thereby allowing the penetration and not leaving their man open for the J. The man on the ball tries to keep the ballhandler in front of them. Come to think of it, maybe this style could be employed because everyone agrees that covering spot up shooters after penetration and kick-out is our weakness. We also have bigs that can pick up the penetration around the basket- Rob and Elias. Also, surprisingly the penetrating player doesn’t always know what to do with the ball when they find themselves inside and the passing angles are blocked. A common time to use this D is at the end of a game when only a 3 can beat you or tie you. You allow the penetration and stay spotted up on the shooters. We could lay for steals with our length and shot block around the basket. Then get the ball and run. This could also force Rob and Elias to play D and give more of a role for Spangler.
We are all so versed in Bobby Knight/ Mike K style D that we sometimes forget that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Absolutly right.
Pay the man Shirley.
by DaveValleDrinkNight on Nov 14, 2011 7:52 PM PST up reply actions
YES!
It has to be better than last year. Friday’s opener was just that, an opener – an eye opener I hope. We got the front count pretty much nailed down so now we need the back court to step it up a notch. Not only better “D” but better “O” too. That would open the interior up which would open up the perimeter and…….
Oh my gosh! – ZAGS GONE WILD!!
GO GONZAGA!!
If we don’t pull this one off then it will still be a learning tool anyway. If your favorite player isn’t getting minutes then maybe they should work harder to get them. NO WHINING!!
That Zags Gone Wild shout out...
…reminds me of that Gaels Gone Wild music video. I hope we never create one of those and look like fools.
by pc3 on Nov 14, 2011 6:15 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Go Bulldogs!
Force long 2’s, instead of giving up 3’s.
Don’t start Hart.
Feed Dower low.
by pc3 on Nov 14, 2011 6:12 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Kyle is suited up
Looks like he’s gunna play
by primal23 on Nov 14, 2011 8:18 PM PST via iPhone app reply actions
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